Caroline Gaynor discusses professional follow-up, work and life and the role of athletics in her career.
Key takeaways
Following up is an important part of professional relationships.
Passions outside work can support perseverance.
The conversation considers how women can lead in finance.
About this episode
In this episode of Rocking Finance, RTSWS CEO Ashley Leftwich speaks with Caroline Gaynor, VP Relationship Director & Investment Specialist at Avantis Investors, for a candid conversation about the importance of follow-up, lessons regarding work/life grounding, and athletics. Caroline explains how women can lead and how passions outside of work can help you preserver.
Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter for more career insights.
Disclaimer: All financial and investment information contained in this podcast is merely for educational and informational purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Should you decide to act upon any information in this podcast, you do so at your own risk.
Listen to the episode
Transcript
Transcript supplied by Riverside; it may contain transcription errors.
speaker-0: Welcome to Rocking Finance, the Rock the Street Wall Street Podcast. Real stories, real access, real path into finance. Join us for candid high-impact conversations with industry leaders sharing the insights, experiences, career pivots, and journeys that can help young women advance through the financial industry with great confidence. Rock the Street Wall Street equips high school and university students, especially young women, by bringing the and STEM to life through financial and investment fundamentals. We provide direct industry access and guidance supporting students and young professionals on their journeys from classrooms to careers while expanding participation in the capital markets. Through cohort-based learning, mentorship, and individual career connection, we help students build confidence, capabilities, and networks that open doors. Our goal is clear: expand participation in the capital markets and strengthen the future of finance one cohort at a time. Today I'm your host, Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rockmistry Wall Street, that lets rock finance. Carolyn Gaynor, welcome to Rocking Finance. You're a vice president, relationship director, and investment specialist at Avantis Investors, where you work closely with the advisor community. With nearly two decades of experience in financial services, you've built a career centered on helping others succeed. Outside of work, you're an accomplished endurance athlete and have spent years guiding blind and visually impaired athletes through triathlons and Iron Man competitions. helping them achieve goals many might think are impossible. Your story is one of perseverance, purpose, leadership, and service. And I'm excited to share it with our students, alumni, and listeners today. Carolyn, thank you for joining us. Let's jump in.
speaker-1: so excited to be here with Brock the Street Wall Street. Thank you so much for having me.
speaker-0: Like many students today, you didn't have an entire career mapped out while you were in college. Looking back at your time at Columbia, what were you passionate about? What were you still figuring out? And how did those experiences help shape the career and life you've built today?
speaker-1: I was still figuring everything out. I think that I really had no idea what I wanted to do. And it's it's so interesting when I talk to kids now and they're 16 years old and they already have a path laid out. I I mean I was a history major in college. I wanted to learn how to think and read and write. And then as I moved toward junior and senior year, I started becoming a little bit more interested in finance. But not even for the right reasons. I just noticed that that's where a lot of the really competitive and smart people that I knew were headed. And so I wanted to understand more about why they were gravitating towards that that space. And also, what did what does finance even mean? I don't think I really I mean it's such a broad, a broad thing and I definitely didn't have a clue when I was in college.
speaker-0: I mean, your story is a great reminder that success often comes from settings setting ambitious goals really and staying committed and striving to improve. So how did those lessons from athletics influence your approach to building your career in finance?
speaker-1: I mean, failure is part of everything. And I actually I think back to when I was in high school and it was between my sophomore and junior year, I started to learn the value of hard work. I was sort of a mediocre runner and I set a goal to run just train with the varsity team. And I was not one of the girls that could show up at the beginning of season having done nothing all summer and still be able to run that fast. So that summer I ran every day. I think I dropped like two minutes on my two and a half mile time. And that was when I realized like, you don't have to be the most talented, but if you work the hardest, a whole lot can be accomplished. and so I've really tried to apply that to my career. I can't say it worked at the beginning just because I was still trying to figure out my purpose, but it is absolutely something that I still abide by today is hard work beats most things.
speaker-0: actually one of the themes that we talk about often at Rock the Street Wall Street is resilience. And I really appreciate the fact that you share that failure is part of everything. Yep. I mean you've spoken very candidly about professional challenges and learning experiences along the way. What have setbacks taught you and how can students learn to view obstacles as opportunities for growth?
speaker-1: When you experience your first failure, it can feel like the world is ending, whether that's getting negative feedback at work, losing a job, not getting a promotion, it can truly feel like, especially for people who really are passionate, it can feel like your world is is ending. But if you can just get past, it's so hard. But if you can get past that initial crushing feeling, the resilience element, it comes into play. It makes you better, stronger. more capable in in future roles, it also helps you realize where do you need to to work on things? It makes you take a hard look at yourself. And so if you can use those as learning moments, I I really think you can become unstoppable. The people I worry about are the people that have never experienced failure because it comes for everybody. And I'm in a sales role, if I were not able to handle rejection, there's no way I could do this job. So everyone has experienced it. Not everyone's honest about it, but I think that welcome Your first failure, your first criticism, because that that's the starting point and that's what's gonna get you to the best version of yourself.
speaker-0: I mean, truly treating those as learning opportunities makes all the difference. And I really love that you said that it makes you unstoppable whenever you recognize them and then move forward from them and treat them that way. At Rockmastry Wall Street, we help students build financial knowledge and meaningful professional connections. And our listeners have heard this many times, but I'm a big believer in compounding. Not only in the investing side, but also in careers and your connections. Those small actions and relationships can create lasting impact over time. How have mentors and professional networks influenced your career and helped open doors bond the way?
speaker-1: I'm actually I'm gonna go back to another thing that I think I should have done better, but I think post 30, I'm now 42, I really tried to lean into my friendships, connections, network. But in my 20s, I really didn't understand the value. And so the what I would say is your network is everything. The people that you connect with find ways to stay in contact with them. And people want to help. That that's the coolest thing is just seeing how the people I know want to show up. For me and for others and giving people an opportunity to help. When I'm thinking about whoever's listening to this, especially girls in high school, reach out to those people who have the job that you want, who've had a path that you're interested in. They want to talk to you. And that is going and they'll stay in contact with you if you give them a way to. And it'll help you throughout your career.
speaker-0: It could be really intimidating for you to see people that are in the profession or see someone with a role that you want and think that I can just message them and we can just start building a relationship. But truly there are so many opportunities and you can you can find ways to connect with them initially and staying connected with them. You have ownership in that and being able to build that social capital and that network can change trajectory.
speaker-1: And the piece of advice I want to give that I wish I'd had is you send that first message, right? You don't get a response. That's fine. Email again. Well, and people in demanding jobs, I am guilty of this. I've had people reach out to me once. Maybe I write an email with give them a couple of times to meet, but then it doesn't work out. And then I never hear from them again. I've forgot at this point. But if they were to say, hey, let me get on your calendar, that's helpful to me. So I know it can feel like you're being sort of obnoxious or pushy, but it is helpful to the busy people you're trying to meet. when you're like, Hey, I'm gonna make this as easy for you as possible. Now of course if they say no, respect that, but most of the time they're not gonna say no. It's really just you need to nudge them a couple of times.
speaker-0: Speaking of busy people, you and I have talked about this previously, how important it is to have purpose outside of work. I volunteer in my community, whether it's supporting environmental initiatives or the fine arts. And I've found those experiences provide perspective beyond just my usual role, right? And your volunteer work as a guide for blind and visually impaired athletes has become a significant part of your life. And why is that important for you to have? purpose outside of your career and what lessons from those experiences have shaped the way you lead and connect with others.
speaker-1: funny guiding has been the one constant in my life when I was experiencing job changes or I was moving or relationships ending, things like that. Guiding was the thing that was always there that I could always give my whole self to. And so it really taught me the importance of having something outside of your professional life that matters to you. And you can't fake it. Don't just like pick up a hobby because you think that people want to see that. But really I think it helps weather the storm when you've got something especially that is giving to others. But again, even if it's a hobby or a passion, having something that's outside of your home life, outside of your professional life that you can devote yourself to. And it doesn't have to be a crazy time commitment. But I think that's the only reason that I've been able to be as resilient is that I've always had this other thing that I'm so interested in. And sometimes if I was injured or something and I couldn't guide, but then I had my work life or I had my relationship, I it's nice to have that balance because Everything won't always go well at the same time.
speaker-0: Really having that genuine connection to something else allows for a little bit of reprieve, even if it is for just a short period of time. Yeah. At Rock the Street Wall Street, we're focused on helping students, especially young women, see a path in finance and investing. Over your career, what progress have you seen for women in the industry? I mean, what can firms and professionals do to continue creating these environments where women thrive in advance?
speaker-1: Man, that's a hard question. I still wish there were more people who were women in these roles. I I think that's one of the things that my daughter who's seven, I hope that by the time she's my age, there are far more women. So I'm in an external sales role. So I travel. I think that firms understand the value of women, but I think often when women start having families and things like that, if you have to decide between one partner's career and the other, I've seen a lot of women take a step back. And not want to pursue the travel role or things like that. But I think that the more firms can support moms, people want to have families, and the more who you choose to to build a life with can support your your goals. I'm very lucky that my husband he knew what he was getting into when he married me, that I was really passionate about my career and he has supported that. But there's no way I could have accomplished what I have if I didn't have him sort of as the backbone of the household.
speaker-0: It's so true. I am also graced with a significant other that supports me and my career. We have two daughters and I also travel quite a bit. And it is something where I feel like my children actually understand that. They have a lot of respect for what I'm doing out in the world and really brings context whenever I come home as well.
speaker-1: thing I want add is women are just as capable of doing these roles as men. And men are just as capable of running a house as women. And we are all able to do whatever role you feel makes the most sense for you and your family, you or your your husband are just as capable. And
speaker-0: Sometimes it is putting my husband in uncomfortable spaces, like we still call room moms and in the culture is still so geared towards females. And he is very comfortable with being in those spaces where he might be the only man in the room for those. And we're on this side, being the only woman in the room at conferences and in other spaces, being comfortable in the uncomfortable, as I like to say, is really a key takeaway for students and alum who are preparing for the internships and their first jobs, what are two to three actions they can take today that will make the greatest impact on their long term success in your opinion?
speaker-1: If you get an offer for an internship, find some people on LinkedIn that you can reach out to to ask questions about the culture, expectations, dress code. I know it sounds really silly, but especially for women, we have more decisions about what we wear, how we present ourselves. It's more goes back to the mental load that we carry. But understand what you're walking into. Take that feedback and also learn from a few people because you might end up talking to somebody who has a very different opinion than someone else. Usually hopefully you'll get the same messaging if it's a corporate environment, but Reach out to people ahead of time, understand what makes people successful in those roles. That's really like the main thing I would say is do your research going into things.
speaker-0: Carolyn Gaynard, thank you for joining us today, both as a financial professional and as someone who has dedicated so much time to helping others achieve extraordinary goals. Your story is a wonderful reminder that success is about showing up, continuing to learn and working hard. Thank you for being with us on Rocking Fight.
speaker-1: Thanks for having me.
speaker-0: Thank you for joining the conversation. Visit Rock the Streetwall Street.com to learn more. Make sure to follow and join us for the next episode. Until next time, let's keep rocking findings.
Christina Rice discusses private markets and how curiosity and preparation can build confidence.
Key takeaways
The discussion covers venture capital and private equity.
Emerging asset classes offer another lens on private markets.
Curiosity and preparation can help build confidence.
About this episode
In this episode of Rocking Finance, RTSWS CEO Ashley Leftwich speaks with Christina Rice, Founder & CEO of Athos Private Wealth, for a candid conversation about navigating private markets. Christina explains how women can lead in venture capital, private equity, and emerging asset classes. She also discusses how curiosity and preparation create confidence.
Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter for more career insights.
Disclaimer: All financial and investment information contained in this podcast is merely for educational and informational purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Should you decide to act upon any information in this podcast, you do so at your own risk.
Listen to the episode
Transcript
Transcript supplied by Riverside; it may contain transcription errors.
speaker-0: Welcome to Rocking Finance, the Rock the Street Wall Street Podcast. Real stories, real access, real path into finance. Join us for candid high-impact conversations with industry leaders sharing the insights, experiences, career pivots, and journeys that can help young women advance through the financial industry with great confidence. Rock the Street Wall Street equips high school and university students, especially young women, by bringing the and STEM to life through financial and investment fundamentals. We provide direct industry access and guidance supporting students and young professionals on their journeys from classrooms to careers while expanding participation in the capital markets. Through cohort-based learning, mentorship, and individual career connection, we help students build confidence, capabilities, and networks that open doors. Our goal is clear: expand participation in the capital markets and strengthen the future of finance one cohort at a time. Today I'm your host, Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rockmistry Wall Street, that lets rock finance. Christina Rice, thank you for joining us. We can share some of your background as your career path hasn't been a straight line. You took an interesting path to build success in the private wealth space. How did you navigate into private markets?
speaker-1: Thank you, Ashley, for having me. Yes, my career path has been pretty unconventional, but every pivot sort of contributed to the essential skills I use every day right now in private wealth. Growing up, I was passionate about writing and published a novel at 15 in China, which eventually led me, thank you, to study and practice journalism. So journalism, I interviewed top pension funds and endowment CIOs. and learned directly from people who allocated billions of dollars. And that opened the door for finance. With that experience, I started to work in hedge funds and private equity and eventually a Solvent Wealth fund before I joined Athos. I realized that I wanted to make investment due diligence and creative problem solving my career. And that's exactly what I do at Ethos right now. We are a multifamily office. And I manage 13 funded funds across venture capital, private equity, private credit, and crypto. And I have invested 70 managers at this point. I lead our efforts in sourcing, diligence, and operations. And I'm proud that we are a very unique type of private wealth manager that we open doors for people to invest in alternative assets in the private market. All those experiences have contributed to the essential skills I use every day.
speaker-0: I'm so interested to hear more about the problem solving piece, though before that, will you tell us a bit more about your novel?
speaker-1: Yeah, of course. So I wrote this when I was fifteen at the time during my teenage years. And during that time I was more of a quiet girl. I kept everything to myself. And the way that I really communicate with the world is by keeping a journal. So I wrote about this girl who was quiet and who didn't really have that many friends. And she was, you know, kinda loner until one day she found a guy that she falls in love with. however, this is not a cliche romance novel. She fell in love with the guy and she thought that became her new purpose and new world. And she started dreaming about a happy, happily ever after ending with this person. However, she was, you know, disappointed eventually. She discovered that this guy has lied to her and cheated on her. And then when she reflects to her on her life, she realized that she didn't need him. So it's a short novel, and there is a lot of, I think. you know, description and writings about her internal like emotional journey. But at the end I think it's a powerful story about how, you know, we all have those teenage dreams, but even if we are disappointed by them, we can still pick ourselves up and go on and keep dreaming.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Be a self-made woman, empower ourselves to accomplish anything that we want to do, right? That's so interesting and absolutely amazing that you were encouraged to write a novel at age 15. Thank you.
speaker-1: Yeah, I don't think they know that I was fifteen when they called me back after, you know, I sent that in. So yeah, I think I actually got paid less because of that.
speaker-0: wow. You have mentioned and many of our students picture themselves, picture finances, banking, or the public markets specifically. So how would you explain what private markets means from venture capital and private equity to other alternative investments like real estate and crypto?
speaker-1: You're exactly right. I think when people hear about finance, they think about the stock market, banks and banks and private markets really is not, you know, everybody's radar. However, private market investing, I think, simply put, just include all the investments that's not traded on public exchanges. And that means, you know, investing things like an early stage startup before they go public. and that would be venture capital and real life simplified. Fun example of this would be what we see on Shark Tank, although there are a lot of you know more complicated deal making in the background. And it could also mean buying a profitable business and try to scale it and improve it, aka private equity. And it could also mean lending money through private loans instead of going through banks. and that is private credit. So these investments are harder to access because they're not traded on the public exchanges, like I mentioned before. And they're less liquid because it takes time for a private company and a startup to develop. And ethos we specializing, you know, help clients navigate and access this market because we believe private market investments really complement the public market investment. It helps you build a much more resilient and diversified portfolio, and that would be much stronger than just having public stocks and bounds alone.
speaker-0: Yeah, you've managed multiple funds across different strategies. So what what skills and mindset helped you step into such a complex space?
speaker-1: Yeah. I think reflecting on my journey, it's really a combination of adaptability, continuous learning, and a unique cross-disciplinary perspective. So I am an immigrant. I came to this country 16 years ago and have lived in Minnesota, New York City, Miami, and now Utah. Every new city I went to challenged me to have to quickly adapt to an unfamiliar environment. I think this is a skill that's directly related to working as an allocator in private markets because this land this landscape that I'm working in is always changing with new investment strategies and trends, emerging constantly. So being able to assess situation and pivot quickly is very invaluable. I have a bachelor's degree and two master degrees. One of the match master degrees was supposed to be. a PhD degree. I am not saying that you need all those degrees, but I think this really is the kind of mindset, you know, that we need to continue to learn as a market it always evolving. You can never stop learning. I worked for seven years before I go back to school to get my MBA because I realized that, you know, I am craving and hungry for new knowledges. And one thing I really love about my job is that I get to talk to brilliant managers all the time who can introduce me to unique investment strategies and philosophies. So I'm always learning new things. And as I mentioned before, you know, I my background is actually in journalism. And that actually taught me to ask insightful questions and to really listen and not just to what the investment managers are saying, but why and how they're saying it. This skill really helped me to discover what's behind the numbers and narratives. At the same time, I this communication skills really enables me to translate complex investment ideas into clear, accessible language to our clients and help them to make the investment decision that works for them.
speaker-0: You shared about your background and how you know you consider yourself a lifelong learner, how those different interests that you had really led to what what you now use within finance and how how moving to those different locations also builds into your background and how it's so so great within your role that you get to speak with people with different backgrounds. And my own math math background. really taught me not only to lean into data, but also the power of compounding and market trends and investment outcomes. In your work, how does the data shape the decision making in the private investing?
speaker-1: Yeah, data is super important in finance and also in private investing, particularly in the due diligence process. One example is that managers will always present a wealth of performance data and statistics, but the real value comes from interpreting those data critically, looking beyond the numbers to uncover the full story. For example, track record can tell you how a fund has performed in the past. But on their own, they don't tell you why. My job is to dig deeper. And for example, I look at a venture manager who may have a very strong return. And I have to ask: is this r a result of one extraordinary investment out of 50? Or does this reflect a repeatable ability to consistently identify extraordinary high pro high potential companies by breaking down this data and connecting it to the underlying drivers? we can assess whether managers' past success is likely to be sustainable in the future. So this way data becomes not more than just numbers. It becomes something that really helps us the foundation to make informed long-term investment.
speaker-0: I love that so much. So what misconceptions do you see about the private markets, especially for women considering careers in this field?
speaker-1: I think one common misconception is that there's little data in private market comparing to the public market. I think it is true that the private market have less quantitative data comparing to the public market. however, it doesn't mean that there's less information and insight that we can't work with. It just means that the data will look differently. For example, a startup, an early startup, may not have a long history of a revenue figure or EBITDA numbers. However, you can still assess the quality of this company by looking at more qualitative data. For example, the founder's background, the product's unique story, the mission and capability of the team and early market traction. So in private investing, I think the skill really lies in knowing what alternative information to look for and how to interpret it. Once you learn to kind of decipher those Now traditional data points, the picture becomes much clearer.
speaker-0: That's wonderfully helpful advice. And as as we've learned today, you had quite the unconventional path to your career. So some of our students always ask, what advice would you have for those who are may not have as clear or as traditional of a route into finance?
speaker-1: Yeah. When I was younger, I was passionate about writing, like I mentioned before, and I pursued journalism. And growing up in China, this was considered a very unpopular path because people believe that, you know, studying journalism may not get you jobs that would make very good money. But my mother gave me a really great advice. People who work in every profession can make money as long as you're the best at it. However, to be able to be the best at it, you have to love it. So I really took this to heart. I remembered to always do something that I love instead of just what people think would make money. I followed my prep passion. I discovered the skills that I gained, for example, like storytelling, critical thinking, really gave me a unique perspective in finance. So I don't just see numbers on a spreadsheet, I see stories, strategies, and opportunities that make sense on a deeper level. So my advice to the students would be that. Don't discourage if you don't fit into the traditional mode or see a clear path in finance. Lean into what excites you and build down your strengths. No matter your background, finance needs people who can see things differently and bring new perspective. So just trust your instincts, develop your abilities, and look for ways your unique background can add value. And that's usually where the great meaningful career starts.
speaker-0: I think that that passion absolutely leads to a meaningful career and just such a fruitful experience within within those careers as well. So looking ahead, where do you see the growth opportunities in private markets that today's students could prepare for?
speaker-1: I think private markets, like every other industry, are being rapidly shaped reshaped by artificial intelligence. And I see this as one of the most important growth areas for the future. In private markets, AI is already transforming how we source deals, conduct due diligence, analyze data, and monitor portfolios. And at the same time, AI itself creates attractive investment opportunities from companies building AI technology to those providing infrastructure, cybersecurity. and different applications that will empower its adoption. So for students, I think developing a working knowledge of AI tools and understanding how they can be applied in investing will be a crucial skill in the future.
speaker-0: Thank you so much for joining us, Christina. What's one action our students can take this year to start building confidence and additional credibility in the investment world?
speaker-1: First, I want to say by joining Rock the Strait Wall Street Career Center, they are already taking a meaningful first step. And I think they can learn directly from professionals with diverse perspectives, which is incredibly powerful. My advice is to build on this momentum, get involved in finance, or invest in clubs, join peer groups, follow market trends, follow read market news daily, and seek out internships and shuttling opportunities. These activities will not allow them, you know, to gain knowledge but also expand their network, which is really, really valuable in this industry. I think confidence comes from preparation and experience and credibility comes from showing up. So stay curious and build relationships and they would have a great foundation that way.
speaker-0: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Christina. Thank you for joining the conversation. Visit RockThreeWallstreet.com to learn more. Make sure to follow and join us for the next episode. Until next time, let's keep rocking finance.
Asha Mehta traces her path into global investing and discusses emerging markets and technology.
Key takeaways
Emerging markets play a role in global growth.
Data and technology are changing investment strategies.
Representation and career exploration matter for women entering finance.
About this episode
In this episode of Rocking Finance, RTSWS CEO Ashley Leftwich speaks with Asha Mehta, Global Investor and author of The Power of Capital. In this session, Asha shares her journey from a pre-med student to the founder of Global Delta Capital, highlighting the pivotal experiences that shaped her career in global and sustainable investing.
This conversation explores: -The importance of emerging markets and why they’re critical to global growth -How data and technology are transforming investment strategies worldwide -The vital role of women in finance and why representation matters -Career advice for students navigating their path in the financial industry
Whether you’re a student curious about finance or a professional interested in sustainable investing, this fireside chat offers powerful insights into building a meaningful career while shaping the future of capital markets.
Discover how purpose and passion can bridge the gap between education and opportunity.
Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter for more career insights.
Disclaimer: All financial and investment information contained in this podcast is merely for educational and informational purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Should you decide to act upon any information in this podcast, you do so at your own risk.
Listen to the episode
Transcript
Transcript supplied by Riverside; it may contain transcription errors.
speaker-0: Welcome to Rocking Finance, the Rock the Street Wall Street Podcast. Real stories, real access, real path into finance. Join us for candid high-impact conversations with industry leaders sharing the insights, experiences, career pivots, and journeys that can help young women advance through the financial industry with great confidence. Rock the Street Wall Street equips high school and university students, especially young women, by bringing the ⁓ and STEM to life through financial and investment fundamentals. We provide direct industry access and guidance supporting students and young professionals on their journeys from classrooms to careers while expanding participation in the capital markets. Through cohort-based learning, mentorship, and individual career connection, we help students build confidence, capabilities, and networks that open doors. Our goal is clear: expand participation in the capital markets and strengthen the future of finance one cohort at a time. Today I'm your host, Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rockmistry Wall Street, that lets rock finance. Asha, thank you so much for joining us. You've been called a pioneer in sustainable finance in emerging markets. And your book, Power of Capital, an Adventure Capitalist Journey to a Sustainable Future, combines business insights, geopolitics, and personal experiences into a powerful story. So let's begin with your journey. What first drew you to global investing, and how did that path lead to you founding global delta capital?
speaker-1: Ashley, thank you so much for hosting me and inviting me onto this program. It's nice to be with you and with Rock the Street, Wall Street. I'm so impressed by the work you do and happy to support. And thank you sincerely for picking up a copy of my book. That's flattering. I'll give you a little background on why I wrote the book and how I got to where I am as a founder of. A small investment boutique. It began my career, I think, when I think of the beginnings, it was very much in my undergraduate experience. I was a pre med student at Stanford University in the late 1990s. And I come from a family of refugees. Both of my parents come from different parts of the world, but had to flee for their own reasons. And I was really drawn in by their own histories and and the suffering that had happened in the communities abroad where they had come from. So I sort of found my way into anthropology where I ended up getting one of my majors. And I spent a summer abroad in university on a pre-med project that went awry. I went to India on a vaccine distribution project, you know, following the the guidance of my parents to become a doctor. And when I landed in India, I quickly learned that the funding for my project had gone away and I was going to be here, you know, for the summer with nothing instead. And this is before the days of cell phones and, you know, internet, easy access, chat GPT, the tools to figure out how to, you know, sort of redefine the purpose of the summer. But as I looked around me in one of the poorest states in India, I was UP, U to Pradesh, I could see around me people who had kind of tattered clothes and often didn't have shoes at all and looked like they hadn't bathed for days. And what hit me in that moment was that what these people need more than health was wealth. And I was pre-med, I was pretty naive. I wasn't sure how I could reorient my summer to participate in wealth generation. So I did, you know, what seemed sensible at the time. I went to a phone book, which we don't really have anymore. But back then I found a phone book and I looked up bank and I found the Bankers Institute of Rural Development. Turned out it was a microfinance organization. So this is a group that gave micro loans to borrowing groups in villages in India. I found my way over to their offices and I offered my services and I was offered an unpaid internship for the summer. And I remember what I did for them was log their loans. And I remember putting into a database, which I was creating for them, 10 rupees for a sewing machine or 25 rupees. For a cow. And while I was really excited to add value to this organization and help update their systems, build a database for them, I'll never forget my first journey into the field with them. We went deep, deep into the villages, you know, off the main roads, off the dirt roads, and further deep. And there we met these women in the borrowing groups. And I couldn't understand the local language, but I could see their expressions as we were handing out small. Loans to them on the order of rupees, which is really equivalent to a quarter or a dollar. I could see before my eyes that we were helping these women build financial independence, helping them support their families, and helping them build their local economies. I thought that was fascinating. It was very visceral again, all very sensory-based, since I couldn't understand the language and I was hooked. So I graduated college in 2000. made my way to Wall Street and sort of committed my career to to finance. I got a degree in banking. One thing led to another and and now I work as I mentioned before in asset management.
speaker-0: That's an incredible journey and such a story that we can resonate with. I mean, I felt like I was there with you on the journey. For students new to global investing, can you break down what macro investing means and why emerging markets are so critical?
speaker-1: Yes, of course. So when I think of investing, the way you characterize it is helpful, Ashley. You know, there's macro related themes and micro related themes. So on the micro side, you're looking at assets, you know, one company versus another company. How do I feel about this management team versus the other? On the macro side, you're thinking about larger, more structural economic shifts. So rather than company versus company, you're looking at perhaps country versus country. There are other ways to interpret macro, but I think for simplicity, we can think companies versus countries. You mentioned global investing. So my boutique is currently focused in emerging markets. And from a macro lens, we think the opportunity for emerging markets is outsized and incredible, especially relative to how investors are currently allocated. In the US, we find that most investors have a US bias. They tend to think US markets are the strongest with the best long term fundamental. And it's fairly common that most investors, whether institutional or retail, will have a disproportionate amount of their investments in the US. But there is an incredible case for emerging markets. Part of the case for emerging markets is growth. The reality is emerging markets, on the basis of purchasing power, they represent more than half of the world's GDP. It is an indispensable engine. For expansion with the young demographic and emerging markets. This asset class represents the future labor supply. It represents the opportunity for increased consumption globally and increasingly, I know we'll talk about technology. In many ways, it is an innovation engine for the world. And the scale cannot be understated. Two of the three largest countries on earth economically today. Our emerging market countries, China and India. I could go on, but I'll just, you know, emphasize the growth point and the scale point. And I won't go into as much depth, but the reality is emerging markets are highly integrated into broader structural flows. So I'll pause there.
speaker-0: I do love that you said that they're innovative and indispensable engine. It's a great way to articulate that. In your book, In the Power of Capital, you are exploring difficult topics as well as sustainability and globalization. What inspired you to write the book and what do you hope students take from it?
speaker-1: Well, I was inspired to write the book in part because I had just spent twenty years of my career studying these markets that I've touched on. And I was fascinated by them. And I felt I needed to process my own experiences having traveled around the world. And I felt that these stories, these, you know, like I mentioned, the microfinance story, I felt that so many of the thematics related to them were underappreciated. And that these are stories that needed to be heard. ⁓ I am an investor, I meet commonly with other investors, companies, individuals interested in investments, and I get so many interesting questions about emerging markets and even about sustainability. Questions like, you know, is it worthwhile to invest outside the US? Is China a superpower? Is China even an emerging market? Is it a developed market? Saudi Arabia. Is it a growth engine or is it ruled by a malicious tyrant? There are kind of some interesting kind of themes embedded there around what does the future look like? You could take this in another direction as well. What is sustainable investing? Is sustainable investing concessionary? As investors, can we actually make a difference in the world we want to live in? Here's one of my favorites, and it's a spoiler alert for anyone who is actually tempted to pick up the book. What is the greatest emerging market in the world? The largest, most untapped emerging market. And the spoiler alert there is women. And we can go into that as a theme as well. But ultimately, I wrote the book partly to just tell the stories that needed to be told and to offer readers, you know, students and professionals alike a greater understanding of today's markets, an understanding of how sustainability can align with the current economic framework. And maybe a little inspiration to travel the world and see these countries with your own eyes.
speaker-0: I mean, something that we talk about with our students so often is that investing and being within the financial profession is such a great opportunity to help others and to make a difference in our world, right? And I think that you've really shared that through some of your stories with us today. You've also shared a really powerful idea, which is that data is a primary store and creator of value. And that really resonates with me. Both of my parents are computer programmers, and I've always loved math and tech and I I remember listening to the markets with my parents and now I get to do that with my own daughter. And it reminds me of how connected everything really is. One of the things that I think is interesting is how have you seen data and technology transform the way that we invest today?
speaker-1: ⁓ it's just been a sea change. I think of it not as not as generational, but You know, one of those once in a millennium major changes. And we're still in the middle of it. You know, I mentioned I was graduating university in the late 1990s. Those were, you know, the original go-go days of Silicon Valley. And we are still in the early stages of this massive development in technology. I mean, you know, what are the developments I've seen? And when I first started my career, it was very challenging to do business across borders. It was hard to get data on companies in emerging markets. It was Hard to submit a trade if I wanted to trade in India. It was very hard to place that order. You have to trade by appointment and go through so many. checks along the way. Today it's not like that. Today, if you want to do an execution in China, they have actually leapfrogged the rest of the world. You know, here in the US, it can take one or two days to settle a trade because we've come from the days of paper and pen booking. And China looks at us like, why do you have to do so much manual booking with you know pencil and paper? Settlement should be instantaneous. We call it T plus one, T plus two here in the US. China's Literally T plus zero, instantaneous. Those are just a few examples of how much the world has changed in the last. You know, call it 10 to 20 years. But on a forward looking basis, technology is completely reshaping the opportunity set. And I should have mentioned that at the front. I do run a boutique investment manager. We invest in emerging markets, as I've talked about. And our investment strategy is entirely technology driven. So the way we gather data and the way we form an investment thesis, entirely data technology driven. The way we develop portfolios and execute those trades is really leveraging them. The technology that exists today. But it's more than that. I mean, the business models that exist across the globe today are completely being redefined. How does banking work? How is credit? Credit assigned to an individual or to a company. It's completely being reshaped as we speak. In the emerging markets, where historically there hasn't been a formal, you know, economy in many parts of the emerging markets. Today, when everyone's shopping online, credit scores can be based on what are you buying in your online markets, you know, on your online carts. You know, I we see that here, of course, in the developed markets as well. AI is everywhere. But I think what's so fascinating is how. emerging markets are leapfrogging in their transition to adopt technology and in many ways invent it. Well we've
speaker-0: talked about how you founded a firm, you've written a book, you've traveled globally, and that's a lot of intensity. So what are some habits that have grounded you in your career and your personal life?
speaker-1: Yeah, thank you, Ashley. It's true. It's been very busy. I certainly feel that I live life to the fullest. I appreciate you mentioning your daughter in one of the prior questions. I also have a young family. I have three kids. ⁓ they just started school yesterday, elementary, middle, and high. I've got one of each. And I'll bring up family, just because I know we're talking to students who are thinking about their careers. And I myself landed in investment management. When I came across a woman, I don't know her name. We never met in person, but I saw she was profiled in an article and she talked about how she was able to balance this industry with a family. She had four kids, I could only have three before I said no more. And I thought that was so inspiring, a career where you can do meaningful work and balance family as well. But I want to make another point in this question. One thing she talked about in that article that I remember so vividly was that she managed money. She saw her role as managing money on the behalf of her beneficiaries, which in her case was public plans. And she talked about the meaning in the work she did helping these retirees enjoy their retirement. And I'd say for me myself, that's what keeps me grounded and keeps me moving in my career. As you mentioned, I've got a lot happening on the professional front and I've got a lot happening at home. How do you keep up with the day-to-day without getting overwhelmed and you know, seeing sort of the big picture? For me personally, it's really about finding the meaning in the work, finding the purpose. And this is part of think what comes out in the book itself. I see power, I see meaning. in money. And and I think it's not just me, ⁓ you know, research and psychology and organizational behavior, it consistently shows that finding purpose is one of the strongest and most sustainable motivators.
speaker-0: I couldn't agree more. It absolutely is. Students often ask us, you know, as they're looking at how careers really unfold and how people really end up in the positions that they end up in. It's often because of a mentor or someone that they have been in front of. So can you tell us about a mentor and what you learned from that individual or that experience?
speaker-1: Yeah, I I think it's true. Finding someone who you can learn from and who can be a champion for you can be instrumental in career development. I in my career I've seen mentorship go through a few different inter iterations. Do you need a formal mentor? Do you actually need a champion, as I just mentioned? And I wanted to highlight the notion that mentorship, it doesn't even have to be a formal association. I'd say one of the greatest mentors in my own career. maybe never even considered himself a mentor to me. I just worked alongside him. He saw my potential. He gave me opportunity. And it was never a defined function, but I consider him one of the greatest mentors in my career. You know, he was a founder as well. And he inspired me and taught me how to take chances and be bold, how to be analytical and be smart. Because if you're taking big risks and you're doing it thoughtfully, there's a meaningful chance that you're You know, you're making a good decision, you're taking a risk that's going to be merited. So I couldn't agree more the importance of having role models or mentors, but they're hard to find in a formal context. And I think if you strive for one prototype, you could be disappointed. So I'd encourage students certainly to find that mentor, but be open-minded around what does mentorship look like.
speaker-0: That's wonderful advice. I also had a mentor and about 10 years in I said, just so that you know, you've been my mentor for for two years now. I don't know if you knew or not, but it's interesting though, you know, those conversations and they really it doesn't have to be so formalized. So thank you for sharing that.
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: So we have briefly touched on the fact that you're a champion for women in finance, but we haven't talked about it much. So you've been a champion for women in finance. Why is it so important to you? And how do you encourage more women to lead in investing?
speaker-1: ⁓ so interesting. Well, it's important to me because there's a remarkable gap in terms of gender representation in this career. I think I was really fortunate to find that article in Barron's magazine that I mentioned, you know, a couple of decades ago, because it's an incredibly rewarding. Career. I graduated Wharton in 2004 and the school does every five year assessments. Students who have graduated ranks them in various career categories on compensation, how how do different careers compensate, and happiness or satisfaction. And interestingly enough, investment management. Scores very, very well on compensation. It also scores very well on happiness. And you could argue, well, the money is buying the happiness, but I really think it's a separate concept. It comes back to meaning. The reality is investment management is a power center. Allocating capital enables us to build the world in which we want to live. So I personally think it's a very meaningful career. And it's just like I said, incredibly underrepresented with respect to gender. I mentioned I was pre-med in medicine. More than half of rising doctors today are women, and more than half of rising lawyers, or maybe right around half, are women. And in investment management, about 10% of portfolio managers are women. And you guys have probably seen the stats from the Knight Foundation that less than two percent is run by anyone other than a white man. So the gap is just tremendous. I myself feel that. It's really important to allow women that opportunity, but I also think it's better for portfolios. You know, it shouldn't be a profession that is only able to be addressed by a small portion of the globe's overall representation. There are studies that show that women actually are. better risk takers than men. They're more mindful around the risks that they're taking. To be honest, those studies are very hard to validate because there's not enough sample. Like you don't have enough examples of women running money, which is, you know, kind of underscores the point that I'm making here. But ultimately I talked in the book and gave away the spoiler alert. My notion is that technology is everywhere. Borders are becoming more ambiguous, at least from a country definition standpoint, because we can do business across borders so easily. If we think of an emerging market, as you know a an investment opportunity that historically has been undervalued and is vastly represented and has incredible potential. I use that framework to make the call that the largest emerging market in the world is women.
speaker-0: I appreciate the spoiler that women are power. And if you were a student and we have so many students that are actually unsure about where they belong in finance, what would you say to them?
speaker-1: Well, I to be fair, I think it's, you know, every everyone has their own passion. And as I mentioned before, industries are being recreated as we speak. And fair enough, finance perhaps is not for everyone. I myself find it a meaningful career. And I mentioned the Wharton studies and and I would recommend it. But of course, you know, each of us have different callings. For someone who's predisposed to finance and they're not sure, I'd highlight, of course, you know, the the One really fun feature of this career is how multidisciplinary it is. If you feel like you're talented across multiple academic domains, math, economics, history, anthropology, finance is an incredible career where you can pull many of those concepts together. There's a lot of grinding in the early days, a lot of spreadsheets. Who knows, maybe AI arbitrages the need for spreadsheets into the future, but it's intellectually. very stimulating. As I mentioned before, finance is a power center. And so I think recognizing that you know it's going into this career, it's one that gives not only the opportunity for personal fulfillment, but really a opportunity to build the world in which you want to live. So if you're looking for robust responsibility as your career evolves, I think it can be very powerful. And then finally, you know, that I'll underscore that piece again around purpose and meaning. The book, as you touched on, is about sustainable investing. And I talk in, you know, the spoiler alert chapter, Women is the largest emerging market. Is it that there's a disproportionate amount of women. In sustainable investing. And sometimes I've wondered if ESG is the pink suite. You know, it's where the women investors go. Yeah. And it kind of has a hint of rubbing the wrong way. But really, there's another way to look at it. If the legacy of women in finance is to make the capital markets more responsible and better governed, it's kind of an amazing legacy for women in finance to leave. So I'd say there's, you know, part of it is just own it.
speaker-0: What would you say to students considering a career in finance?
speaker-1: That's a great question. Yeah. If you're inspired by these comments and you're in a position to take action now, I'd say harness this moment. Go for it. Become educated. Read an article in a topic in Forbes or, you know, Economist, Bloomberg. Become educated on a theme that really impassions you. Other places you can look to be educated, find a podcast you like, follow someone on LinkedIn. ⁓ selfish plug, grab my book, read my book, subscribe to my newsletter on LinkedIn and Say the first thing you can do is get educated and find a way to keep that stream of education coming to you.
speaker-0: Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing such wonderful learnings and to our students. Stay curious, stay bold, and the habits you build today can open doors that you haven't even imagined yet. Thank you.
speaker-1: Thank you.
speaker-0: Thank you for joining the conversation. Visit Rock the Streetwall Street.com to learn more. Make sure to follow and join us for the next episode. Until next time, let's keep rocking Finy.
Shelly Antoniewicz connects economics, investing and public policy through stories from her career.
Key takeaways
The velocity of money helps explain how money moves through an economy.
Compounding is an important concept for financial education.
Economics, investing and public policy intersect in the investment industry.
About this episode
In this episode of Rocking Finance, RTSWS CEO Ashley Leftwich speaks with Shelly Antoniewicz, Chief Economist at the Investment Company Institute (ICI), about pivotal moments in her distinguished career, along with how economics, investing and public policy are connected.
Shelly shares how a fast-food drive-through with her mom sparked an early understanding of the velocity of money and explores an RTSWS favorite, the power of compounding. She also discusses ICI’s mission and what’s ahead for the investment industry. Together, they offer practical advice for students building their financial knowledge and exploring their own career paths.
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Disclaimer: All financial and investment information contained in this podcast is merely for educational and informational purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Should you decide to act upon any information in this podcast, you do so at your own risk.
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Transcript
Transcript supplied by Riverside; it may contain transcription errors.
speaker-0: Welcome to Rocking Finance, the Rock the Street Wall Street Podcast. Real stories, real access, real path into finance. Join us for candid high-impact conversations with industry leaders sharing the insights, experiences, career pivots, and journeys that can help young women advance through the financial industry with great confidence. Rock the Street Wall Street equips high school and university students, especially young women, by bringing the ⁓ and STEM to life through financial and investment fundamentals. We provide direct industry access and guidance supporting students and young professionals on their journeys from classrooms to careers while expanding participation in the capital markets. Through cohort-based learning, mentorship, and individual career connection, we help students build confidence, capabilities, and networks that open doors. Our goal is clear: expand participation in the capital markets and strengthen the future of finance one cohort at a time. Today I'm your host, Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rockmistry Wall Street, that lets rock finance. Welcome to Rocking Finance, the podcast where we explore our careers, investing, economics, and the leaders shaping the future of the financial markets. I'm Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rock the Street Wall Street, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Shelly Antony Fitch, Chief Economist at the Investment Company Institute, or ICI. We'll hear from Shelley about ICI and its mission to strengthen the foundation of the asset management industry for long-term individual investors. As chief economist, Shelley analyzes the economy, investment funds, retirement trends, and the public policies that shape the financial markets. Her work across economics, investing, and public policy can inform industry leaders and policymakers to better understand the forces influencing today's investment landscape. Today we'll discuss ICI, the current economic environment, policy issues affecting investors, how artificial intelligence is changing the profession, and Shelley's own career journey. We'll also hear her advice for the next generation of economists, investors, and financial leaders. Shelly, welcome to Rocking Finance. We're so glad you're here.
speaker-1: Thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm really excited to be here today.
speaker-0: Well, let's go ahead and get started with talking about ICI, the Investment Company Institute. So ICI's mission is to strengthen the foundation of the asset management industry for the ultimate benefit of long term individual investor. Can you tell us what that means in practice?
speaker-1: Well, it means focusing on the policies, the regulations, research and industry practices that help investors, just your regular everyday retail, individual investors, save and invest with confidence. So in practice, that work happens in several ways. First is advocating for sound public policy. We work with policymakers and regulators to promote rules that protect investors. support efficient markets and preserve access to investment products. And that helps regular everyday families face say for their retirement, for their kids' college education, and other long-term goals on their bucket lists. Second, and this is where my department comes in, is providing objective research and data. ICI produces research and industry statistics that help policymakers Market participants and the public better understand how funds and the capital markets operate and how retail investors use funds. Third is promoting strong industry standards. We bring industry participants together to address operational governance, fiduciary, and technology challenges to help ensure that investment products remain transparent. And focused on retail investors' interests. And lastly, we're all about expanding opportunities for investors. Ultimately, our goal is to help more people access professionally managed investment products and the long-term benefits of participating in the capital markets. So when ICI talks about strengthening the foundation. We're talking about building a regulatory and market environment that allows funds and asset managers to serve retail investors effectively. And when we talk about the ultimate benefit for investors, we're measuring us, we're measuring success by whether everyday Americans are better able to stay for retirement, build wealth, and achieve financial security over the long run.
speaker-0: mentioned that you're helping to save invest with confidence and that transparency piece is so important whenever we're looking at confidence in anything, right? The transparency, the data. And I'm delighted to hear about the education piece as well. So as chief economist at ICI, you spend your day studying the economy. When I was growing up, I actually paper traded with my dad. And today my daughters like to check to see who won for the day, was it the bull or the bear that won the race? What does a typical day look like for you? Which economic indicators or trends do you watch most closely during the day and how does that describe what today's economic outlook looks like?
speaker-1: So this is a great question for me because I have to say that my job allows me to indulge in one of my favorite activities without any guilt. I love to follow what's going on in the US economy and financial markets. I just do, you know. Typically, while I'm having my first cup of coffee in the morning, I'll check how the equity futures and treasury rates are trading, you know, whether they're up or down and by how much, and whether there was any big news overnight that's driving them. Then I like to note what the economic releases are coming out that day and what current expectations are for those numbers. That way when I'm kind of checking the market during the day, I can more easily understand why treasury rates or stock prices may be moving around during the day. I think everyone who talks to me likes to ask me, well, okay, what do you think is gonna happen to the economy? What do you think's gonna happen? So right now, like many, many Americans, I'm focused on the employment and the inflation reports. But I also like to follow reports on consumers' financial well-being. Consumer spending generally accounts for about two-thirds of economic activity. So understanding how cash constrained or flush households are is super helpful for thinking about their spending.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I appreciate that you shared a little bit more about what that cash constraint actually means for our students in the audience. Yeah. Actually, many of our students are beginning to see how economics, investing, and public policy all work together. And I appreciate that you mentioned looking at what the big news was and how that plays into it. How do thoughtful regulation and sound public policy strengthen? our markets and create better long-term outcomes for those individual investors.
speaker-1: No, I think this goes back to what I mentioned first, is that thoughtful regulation and sound public policy help protect retail investors by ensuring that the investment products, as you said, remain transparent, right? It's critical that people understand what they're investing in and that the regulations are focused on investors and helping investors to be able to save. In the capital markets. Thoughtful regulation and sound public policy also support efficient markets. And efficient markets are critically important. Investors, both institutional and retail, know that trading in the US financial markets is fair. Okay. And what do I mean by fair? Prices incorporate relevant information, and trading costs are competitive. So this framework. As you said, helps people feel confident about using investment products like mutual funds and ETFs to save for their long-term goals. They're not afraid of investing in a large cap equity fund or putting their money in a multi-sector bond fund.
speaker-0: Building on that, can you share some of ICI's priorities, including areas like the Growth Act and expanding investor access?
speaker-1: So there's a couple things I want to mention here. One is that ICI is very much in favor of Congress passing the Growth Act. So for your viewers who may not know what that is, I'm going to give a little briefer on that. So under current law, investors in mutual funds held outside of retirement accounts. So outside your 401k or outside your IRA.
speaker-0: Yes, please do.
speaker-1: Must pay taxes each year on capital gains distributions. They have to pay these taxes even if they didn't sell a single share of the fund, or even if those gains that they received were just automatically reinvested back in the fund. Okay. That means these investors are being taxed on money that they never really saw or received in their checking account. At all. But yet they're having to pay actual cold hard cash to the IRS. That reduces their returns. What we're advocating for, and our industry is advocating for, is the Growth Act. The Growth Act, which was introduced in the House and Senate, would let investors defer taxes on automatically reinvested capital gains distributions until they sell their shares in that fund. And this isn't any different treatment. This is exactly the same tax treatment as people who invest directly in stocks. So if I were to buy Apple directly, I would get this treatment. I would not be taxed on my capital gains until I sold my shares of Apple or and also bonds. So it's exactly the same treatment. So it's not asking for anything special. It's actually just asking to level the playing field. You know, because most middle class Americans, when they're buying into the equity market in particular, they're gonna be buying, they're buying through a fund, they're buying through a mutual fund or an ETF. And it really should have equal treatment to investors who are buying. Stocks directly. The second thing that ICI is in favor of is expanding access to private investments for retail investors. So if you think about this now, companies are waiting much, much longer to go public than ever before. We have so many unicorn IPOs, you know, and a unicorn IPO is when they come out and they're IPOing at more than a billion dollars. I mean, it's crazy, right? So we believe that. Retail investors should be able to invest in these next generations of transformative companies because as we all know, getting in earlier can lead to much bigger returns for them later. So if you're investing after the company's already hit a growth cycle, you're gonna miss out on those returns. We also believe Americans should have the opportunity to invest in private assets. Through regulated funds. And regulated funds here, mutual funds, ETFs, closed-end funds, these are established financial vehicles with a very robust regulatory framework and strong built-in investor protections. So regulated funds are the ideal wrapper because they have to follow strict legal requirements that include oversight from an independent board. limitations on leverage, limitations on transactions with affiliates to control conflicts of interest. And there's a bunch of other sort of investor protections that are designed to protect individual retail investors. So we think retail investors sort of deserve the freedom to have these choices. They can choose to invest in a fund that has exposure to private assets, or they can choose not to. They can take whatever approach works best for them, but we think they should have that choice in the first place.
speaker-0: Shelly, I'd love to hear more about your career journey. What sparked your interest in economics to begin with and what led you to ICI? For me, along the way, there have been mentors and experiences and turning points that shape my career. So did you experience the same and what continues to energize you in that work?
speaker-1: to economics even as a kid, but I didn't know it then.
speaker-0: You didn't call it economics?
speaker-1: There's one memory I have. I remember this distinctly. I was with my mom and she was paying for a fast food meal. I think it was before they even had happy beals. I had a dollar. Okay, but she we went to some fast food place and she was paying. And this was back in the day when people actually used real dollar bills, right? So I remember her paying and then I remember me in my head trying to map out the path. Those few bucks we're gonna take, like from the fast food place to the bank, then recycled from the bank to somebody else who'd go and spend it themselves somewhere and start the cycle all over again. And I had no idea that I was thinking about the velocity of Until over a decade later, when I was sitting in one of my college econ classes. So I guess it was just meant to be. I've been a professional economist for 34 years now. And I started my career at the Federal Reserve in Washington, DC. And I stayed at the Fed for 13 years. My first boss, who was an excellent writer, told me, Your first draft is Not a final draft. Those were great words of advice. And I still reread stuff I write, even emails. And darned if I don't catch typos or misspellings or inconsistent logic before sending it out. And I found that I'm a much better communicator following this practice. And that's something that's really helped me. And then how did I get from the Fed to ICI? I had many wonderful colleagues at the Fed, and a few actually moved on to ICI. So when ICI was hiring in 2005, some of these old Fed colleagues recruited me over to ICI, and I've been here over 20 years now. Honestly, it wasn't a hard sell for them. ICI has a sterling reputation for objective research and Analytic driven policy recommendations. And you know, I I knew about them prior. So I I feel like I was the lucky one. How do I stay energized? I'm energized by the variety of topics that the research department covers. So, you know, we're we're a group of about 45 in the department, but we're split into three different groups, and we cover ⁓ Huge amount of ground, retirement policy, tax policy, economic impact analysis of regulatory proposals, financial stability as it relates to funds, and market structure. So equity market structure, bond market structure. It's like our members are trading in these markets. And so if rules are going to impact the markets and gonna impact how they're able to trade, we will weigh in on that. So I have to say, covering that much ground, I am absolutely never bored. I'm
speaker-0: Sure, that is a lot of ground to cover. It also is something interesting as far as, you know, artificial intelligence is changing nearly every profession, including finance and economics. Keeping in mind that the students are preparing for their careers in this evolving landscape. How do you see AI influencing the work of economists? We just talked about all of all of those different areas. So economists, you know, investment professionals and policymakers.
speaker-1: insights that or the advice I would give some of the younger people and they probably already know this, but it you have to become AI literate. You have to learn how to use AI effectively to increase your productivity because that that is just the way it's going to be now. You have to know how to use it because it is a game changer for productivity. I myself, I find AI ⁓ to be an amazing tool to gather and synthesize information on specific topics. Can it do some of the higher level thinking that you know someone in my position is trying to do? No, not yet, but it it is just an incredible time saver because I no longer have to go and find all of this information and bring it together. In my department, we're using AI. In a different way, in another way. We're gathering unformatted data from disparate public sources, doing this manually. And we'd thought about trying to get some of this data, but it it was an insurmountable amount of human labor we would have had to put in to get this data. But now one of my staff has created an AI agent that just runs in the background on her computer. while she goes about her day accomplishing other tasks. And at the end of the day, she goes, she sees how much data the AI agent has found and scraped off of the public websites and is assembling a database for us for this information that we find we think is going to be super helpful. So those are just a couple examples of how we're using AI and just again, learn how to use it.
speaker-0: For sure, and it can really be a helpful tool in so many situations. Many of our students are actually discovering economics for the first time. And I'm curious as to what advice you would give some of those students who are looking to become more economically literate. Are there books or podcasts or news sources or daily habits that you build your understanding of the economy and markets you would suggest to them?
speaker-1: Besides listening to your podcast, Rocking Finance. Great start. I mean, that's that's like the bare minimum they should be doing. Just read the financial news. There are plenty of free sites out there. I I literally keep CNBC up on my screen all the time, every day. And I'm checking and I'm reading the little news stories and they're little snippets and it's great.
speaker-0: Thank you for that, Shelly.
speaker-1: And I think what's nice for younger folks is that, you know, that are just learning this is if you don't understand a term or a concept, use Ingestapedia or AI to explain it to you. It is really being able saying I don't know anymore is no excuse because it takes so little effort now to go find that information and make yourself knowledgeable.
speaker-0: Well, and I think just having CNBC on, even if you don't understand what's happening today, the more you have it on, the more you just start absorbing and putting the pieces together.
speaker-1: I keep the website up. So I'm checking the news stories. I'm checking the market. I'm I'm doing that. I will click on some of the videos when something is particularly interesting.
speaker-0: Yes, absolutely. And I think also your comment as far as like looking it up on Investopedia or I mean our career center even has resources to help define some of those more difficult topics and and being able to just start learning those different words that are a part of the lexicon is is a great start. So thank you for mentioning that. We'll close with two questions we asked many of our guests. So looking back to when you were in school or Just beginning your career. What do you wish you had known this?
speaker-1: People's skills matter just as much as SMARTs. Even though I started my career over 30 years ago, I think this applies even more today because of the age of technology. Either remote work or we're using so much technology that texting or teams chatting rather than calling people up and talking to them face to face. You need to have good People's skills. You can be super smart, but you still need to be able to get along with people, compromise, understand everybody's objectives and what the team goal is.
speaker-0: ⁓ yes, I I really love that. Building those relationships, but also then tying it back to how are you collaborating to meet those team goals? Wonderful. And finally, at Rock the Street Wall Street, we often say that understanding money gives people more choices. Looking ahead 15 years, what do you hope today's students understand about investing, economics, and financial decision making that will help them create greater opportunity for themselves, their families, and their communities?
speaker-1: Well, I'm sure you hear this one a lot, but for me it's the power of compounding. Start investing early and stay the course. Cause in 15 years, you're going to be so happy that you did that.
speaker-0: Shelly, that's my favorite word, so I couldn't have said it better myself. Shelly, thank you so much for joining us on Rocking Finance. We appreciate you sharing your insights on the economy, the important work of ICI, and your own career journey. Your perspective helps our students better understand how economics, investing, and public policy shape the world around them and how they will be a part of its future. Thank you.
speaker-1: Thank so
speaker-0: Thank you for joining the conversation. Visit Rock the Streetwall Street.com to learn more. Make sure to follow and join us for the next episode. Until next time, let's keep rocking findings.
Sachee Trivedi and Kristine Beese discuss how engineering shaped their paths into investing and fintech.
Key takeaways
Engineering backgrounds can lead to careers in finance.
Analytical thinking can be useful in investing.
Curiosity supports exploration across finance and fintech.
About this episode
In this episode of Rocking Finance, RTSWS CEO Ashley Leftwich moderates a discussion with Sachee Trivedi, Founder & CEO of Trident Capital Investments, and Kristine Beese, Founder & CEO of Untangle Money. Both share how their engineering backgrounds shaped their investing careers, proving that analytical thinking and curiosity are powerful tools in finance and fintech.
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Disclaimer: All financial and investment information contained in this podcast is merely for educational and informational purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Should you decide to act upon any information in this podcast, you do so at your own risk.
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Transcript
Transcript supplied by Riverside; it may contain transcription errors.
speaker-0: Welcome to Rocking Finance, the Rock the Street Wall Street Podcast. Real stories, real access, real path into finance. Join us for candid high-impact conversations with industry leaders sharing the insights, experiences, career pivots, and journeys that can help young women advance through the financial industry with great confidence. Rock the Street Wall Street equips high school and university students, especially young women, by bringing the ⁓ and STEM to life through financial and investment fundamentals. We provide direct industry access and guidance supporting students and young professionals on their journeys from classrooms to careers while expanding participation in the capital markets. Through cohort-based learning, mentorship, and individual career connection, we help students build confidence, capabilities, and networks that open doors. Our goal is clear: expand participation in the capital markets and strengthen the future of finance one cohort at a time. Today I'm your host, Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rock the Street Wall Street. Now let's rock finance. Welcome everyone. I'm delighted to be here with two impressive investors, Christine and Sachi, both trained as engineers who have made their way into finance. Our session is called STEM Career Paths, Engineering to Equities and More, because we all know how powerful analytical skills are when applied to investing. Let's jump in. Would you share a moment about your role today?
speaker-2: and CIO of Trian Capital Investments. It's a long-only public equities India fund. So we are basically creating the Berkshire Hathaway of India by applying the Warren Buffett's timeless principles into the Indian stock market.
speaker-1: I'm Christine and I'm the founder and CEO of Untangle Money. It's an online platform that helps everyday women give them a place to get started with their money. So it really helps them with personalized financial literacy and financial planning so that they have the confidence to then invest their money in the financial markets. It's the thing that I wish I had when I graduated engineering.
speaker-0: Thank both for those wonderful introductions and already so impressive. So I'm excited for our conversation today. Now how did engineering first shape your way of thinking and how do you think that led into investing?
speaker-2: I think I've been a curious kid from the very beginning. Those unknowing kids who are always asking questions. How does this work? And why is this the way it is? Well, that was me. So engineering is a great option for kids of this type. And I have two degrees in engineering. So I did my undergrad in engineering, electrical engineering, and then I did my master's in electrical engineering as well. But over time, I figured out that my curiosity was not just about things and gadgets, it was about Bigger things. It was about business. It was frankly about how the world works. So for me, it was applied that engineering mindset and the toolkit being able to analyze data, problem solving, just ability to work with that low signal-to-noise ratio. And I just took that same engineer engineer toolkit and applied it into analyzing businesses. So investing was kind of a natural segue for me from engineering.
speaker-1: I totally agree with Satch on that one and I echo it. I I think for me it was I had designed a pump and I thought it was the perfect pump for the application and I presented it and my boss looked at me and said, Go back. Find out what what pumps they're using on site and then find that that book and what's available and pick the one that's closest to what we need. And at that moment What I learned later in that same conversation was he said they're not gonna train operators on a new piece of equipment. They're not gonna stock more spare parts on a new piece of equipment. They're gonna go with what they know. And so you have to make do with what's available. And it's at that point that I realized that engineering, while incredible, is a tool that they use to do other things. And there are other considerations. And once I figured that out, I really became curious all over again. And I went to the bank and I didn't know what to do and I didn't get a great answer from the person I spoke with. And so again, that underlying how do I do this? How does this work? Why? I think that's what really led me to investing. Cause I wanted to figure out what to do with my money.
speaker-0: analytical nature because it's so much so transfers into finance and different areas of finance. One of the things we talk about with our students is that careers are rarely linear. So what are some points? We kind of started talking about these, but what are some key points that was pivotal for you to realize finance was actually your calling out of that?
speaker-2: I'm definitely an example of exhibit A, careers are not linear. From as I'm a retired engineer. So from being an engineer to being a management consultant to ultimately doing investing. And I think that's that is my career now. It's absolutely not a linear path. And listen, I embraced investing as my sort of lifelong pursuit only once I discovered Warren Buffett. And Hel allow me to explain this. People are driven by different things, right? Some people seek money, some people seek power. But I think I've always been sort of driven by a sense of purpose. So I had a huge hesitation about finance or investing. And I just did not see myself as someone who is chasing money. I discovered Warren Buffett around the time I was toying with the idea of an MBA. And I read the book, The Making of an American Capitalist. And I just totally resonated with it. The fact that he is one of the richest people in the world is a mere footnote in his list of accomplishments. He has lived a life of simplicity and absolute intellectual curiosity, but he has helped shape the culture of corporate America like no other. In that process, he has secured the financial future of thousands of his investors. And he will be given more, be giving away more than a hundred billion dollars to charity. So for me, this was a life that is worth living. It disentangled the greed part of it of finance or of investing and kind of gave a sense of purpose. So for me, investing is taking away for my investors that biggest worry that they have about their financial security. So that's how I came into investing.
speaker-1: And Sachi, I echo so much of what you said. If I jump back into the story when I went to the bank, after I met with that and that bank advisor and it was unsatisfying, I started reading everything I could. Berkshire Hackathoway has free letters to shareholders and especially the early ones, they really walk you through his investment thesis and his mindset, and they're accessible in in the sense that I didn't need to be a financial expert to understand what he was telling me. ⁓ but that's a great it's the same place I started. It's a great place to start. I was more attracted to the money. I wanted to make a lot of money. I wanted to be independent. I wanted to have optionality. And so I was looking for a career that would be satisfying financially. And I was numerically literate. There's a lot of charting in engineering and I I really quickly could understand charts because we see a lot of them when we are learning and working. And so some of the key pivots in my career came from. Go similarly, engineering to MBA to trading floor. one of I did a rotational program there. So I spent my first four rotations on the trading floor. I ended up landing in something called equity research, which I'm basically a stock analyst. That really mirrored some of the work that I was doing in engineering. It's very analytical, it's very much in front of a computer. I wanted a little more. interaction with people and so I ended up becoming a professional investor working with really high net wealth individuals. And it was later I now become a mom. I have three children and this is when my mind went from I think partially you satisfy some of your financial needs and requirements on the journey. And now this when I've ch my mind has really shifted to impact. And I really want to help the women who like me don't have a place to get started and and aren't necessarily high networks Pretty big threshold to be an accredited investor in in a lot of places. And so I wanted to help people that didn't weren't able to access that part of the system. And that's when I became an entrepreneur. I used a lot of my own investments that gave me the option to do this sort of work and actually invested it in this company. So it's a totally different ball game. And the career art kind of makes sense when you put it all together, but I can tell you there were nights when I sat up really late at night having trouble sleeping, thinking, Like, should I have stayed in engineering or should I have stayed in the finance community or should I stayed investing money for wealthy, wealthy people? so it is a jo it's not always easy and it kind of makes sense backwards. But I think you listen to your gut and and engineering's such a great tool cu 'cause it gives you so much opportunity. There's so many things that you're able to do with that degree.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love who. referring to like the hindsight portion of it being like, ⁓ yes, there could have been a line drawn here. But at the moment, probably for both of you did not necessarily see that next step that was coming. And Sashi, I love that you mentioned that you did not see yourself as someone that was chasing money. Like your self-identity kind of was part of what was playing into your next piece and really redefining what that looks like as far as finance. And and Christine, you also mentioned the part of you wanting to be independent and and satisfying those different pieces. And I feel like what I heard between both of you was that you both ended up having this piece of giving back in different ways or like looking at things that help others in different ways, which I think is really incredible.
speaker-2: I will I I I will say something here. And I think Christine, I'm very curious to hear if you if this is similar to your experience as well. So I I have children. Okay. And when I had my daughter, I think that was a time of deep introspection for me because having children is absolutely one of the most blessed things that can happen to you. And that does for women is it increases their opportunity cost. For coming ⁓ for being in the workforce. So if I have something incredibly beautiful and joyous in my life, you have to give me a really compelling reason to leave this little thing, your bundle of joy behind, and go back to the office. And it is in those moments when you really dive deep into yourself to see what is it that is that will give you comparable joy or maybe more joy. than what you have here. So I found myself incapable of just doing a job, just doing something that I was not passionate about. So those qu those answers, what is your relationship with money? What is it that you are seeking from your life? Those questions start becoming far more important at that stage.
speaker-1: Yeah, and if I can add, I think two things can be true at the same time and and absolutely I think having children was for me one of the best things I've had the opportunity to experience. And also I had children late and I really mourned the person I was before and I really felt impacted at my corporation because I had now become a mum and I felt like career paths that were once open to me. I was identified as a high performer, high potential employee. And so I was on this certain trajectory. And then when I came back from my first Matt leave, that was no longer there. And so I really felt that sometimes I feel like sometimes they don't brand maternity leave really well because I think there were some superpowers I received during that phase of my life. One I want to I want to just point out that I did mourn and it was there was there was some discomfort about losing this life that I'd spent a lot of effort and invested in and and I felt was no longer there. And that was a process to get through and I'm I'm got through it. But it isn't easy. And so I was able to really see the emotional needs of the people I worked with. And two, I actually and I think Sachi, you're sort of talking about this in a way, but I became extraordinarily efficient with my time because to your point, if it was gonna be something I wanted to get done. I really need if I was at home, it had to be done in a very truncated manner. So you became very good at great at prioritizing and being efficient with your time. And then if I was gonna stay later or for some reason, I want to make sure that happened as little as possible because I really was wanting to get back home. And so I don't and I I couldn't play the FaceTime game anymore, but I don't think it it if I don't think it impacted my output. And I wish we branded that a bit better and talked about the s superpowers and strengths that you get when you go on maternity leave and when you have a child in your life. I I really do think there's tons of skills that I had not gotten previously that I was able to get. So yeah. And I do think as my kids got older, I no longer was satisfied with some of the things that I was able to do through my career and wanted that impact could only come through entrepreneurship. So I totally agree with that. Thank you for bringing that up.
speaker-0: Thank you. There's so much within that that's just following that passion. And to your point or both of your points really, the opportunity costs you have to weigh. And so that means that it's even more important that you see the value and your identity within what you're doing to a certain extent, right? With your everyday, whether it's at work or not. So thank you for bringing that up. All right. As far as with your technical backgrounds, I am also someone that really appreciates data. So how do you approach analyzing an investment or designing a financial solution differently than somebody who might have a traditional finance background?
speaker-1: Yeah, so I think there are there's a lot of math in finance, which as an engineer or someone from a science background, a math background, you're very comfortable with. So that was that was sort of the no-brainer of it all. But I also think that when you do an application of theory, right? There's a lot of theory in theoretical finance, there's a lot of theory in finance, but having worked in an application of theory, you really get this idea that there's a range in which that that theory works really well. And then there are conditions where that theory breaks down. And I think I think that being an engineer, one, because you understand how things work, it helps you, it gives you an edge compared to other investors who may not be mechanically inclined, who may not understand how the sausage gets made and therefore may have rose color colored glasses on or may not understand some of the implications of the management decisions. So and so it is kind of like a if if you're in stock analysis. in a technical field, it really is a great BS detector. And so I think that really was my my unfair advantage because I could look at a plan and because I had that experience, I thought I could say, this is really ambitious. And if and so I could press the management, what are you doing to ensure that you're able to have this expedited process? And if they didn't have a great answer, I knew that was a gonna be a big risk and that was something that we could watch and that was something there I could add value. for the investment community who may not have that technical background. So a little bit of I f again a superpower. I felt like I could see through some of the smoke and mirrors sometimes.
speaker-2: Absolutely. I would totally sort of echo everything that Christina's just mentioned on the technical aspect. And I think as an engineer, you do have an advantage for sure. No doubt about it. So I guess I would add on to what Christine said about technical skills, but I would add on to it then maybe the softer side of things. And that is also very, very important. The behavioral side, which is very important. The first one that comes to mind is intellectual honesty. So, Engineer, I think. I would be very uncomfortable not really understanding something. And I will keep saying, I don't know, I don't get it, I don't understand till I get it. And I think that's not your standard protocol in finance. You kind of like swing it and wing it, kind of a thing. And and I think it's it's one of the superpowers to say, no, no, I don't get it. So you so that intellectual honesty is, I think, very important. ⁓ another thing is I think your approach to risk management. So as an engineer, and I'm not a structural engineer, but
speaker-0: And you
speaker-2: You're building a bridge, you will assume that there will be people who will want to jump off it. And you will make those enclosures to prevent that from happening at the very onset. In the world of finance, risk management is done by other people, by another department. It's an add-on, it's an afterthought. And I think as an investor, you have to really, I mean, I lead with thinking about risk. Before I start thinking about what Christine said about looking at things with tinted glasses, I would lead with risk. And I think finally, it's ⁓ investing is a very lonely job. Money oftentimes is made when you are a contrarian. And I think as an engineer, I mean I'm I'm I'm double nerd, right? I'm an engineer and an investor. So being alone is like who I am, like that's my comfort zone. So So I'm totally chill, sort of, you know, not walking in the hood, like as part of the hood again. And you can pick up any bubbles that have happened in the financial markets, they have been as part of the herd mentality. So I think there's behavioral benefits of being an engineer.
speaker-0: I think it's also willing to think about things differently and share that, right? We all probably have some pieces that are different as far as the way that we think and approach things. And sometimes we're really shy not to share that or act on it. And I think that both of your points are just so valuable for our students. We within our program we have our coffee chats and mentorships. So students often ask us about finding guidance and how to go about that and what that really looks like. I know I personally had a mentor that didn't even know that they were my mentor for years. But can you tell us about a mentor and how you went about building that relationship and how it influenced your career?
speaker-1: Yeah, so I actually struggled with mentors throughout my career and didn't know how to go about it actually in the beginning. So and it was a coach that I had, a a business coach that I had that I had been speaking about this woman who I heard talk and how I had never heard an executive speak that way on this issue and how I thought it was really different and and brave and empowering and and she said, Yep, I want to task you with reaching out and asking her to be your mentor. And and I didn't want I'm a people pleaser. And I didn't want to disappoint my coach, but I ended up getting an incredible mentorship opportunity out of it. And one of the things that my mentor said to me is she said she's a very prominent person in the in our in the finance commo community. She said she was actually surprised at how few people ever reached out. And so I wanted to thank both my coach for ⁓ giving me the bravery and not doing it on a lark. There was a few meetings about how, because she was so esteemed, ⁓ how I was gonna approach it. And we talked a lot about how I would ultimately deal with the rejection 'cause that we we thought was certain to come, but that it was important to to communicate what I what I admired about her, why I thought her answers were brilliant, and that was part of the exercise. It ended up working out really well. So then my mentor later shared with me that she's surprised, specifically women. She w she really wants to Have an impact on the next generation. That is why she's been a bit more forthright with some of her answers. And she was surprised that people hadn't reached out. So I'd say swing for the fences, a few things. We did manage a lot of the expectations ahead of time about if she couldn't, she's a busy person. You get through some of the gatekeepers, people that are keeping her focused on her work. Sometimes sometimes I'm just I'm just flat to the wall, busy with. something that we're trying to get done and other times of the year, I'm really not busy either. We have slow periods. And so I think reaching out, also offering that you're it's someone that you would like to meet badly enough that you're willing to wait for a slow season and that that you will take on that outreach when it comes if they say, Hey, now's not a great time, but what June is really quiet, that you calendarize that and reach out again in June. I I think one Take the risk. You you'll you can't get if you don't ask. And then two, also go in prepared, right? Why do you want to meet them?
speaker-2: Had a rather sort of different experience. I don't have like one mentor, I have kind of like many. And it's basically people over the course of the career who I found interesting or insightful. And I've just like walked up to them after a meeting or after a networking session or whatever that might be, and had that conversation. And I would actually encourage a lot of like all young people to do that because as Christine mentioned, You'd think they are they'd be bombarded with people seeking their advice. And actually that's probably not the case because everyone is so reticent and so shy about it. And yes, you have to be respectful of the time, but if you're seeking advice, just go and do it. I have personally found institutional programs to be less useful. I think they are far more formal and structured. So I think it just it's it's and it just there's a lot of expectations that are that get built into it. So I find that a bit unnerving. I have found ⁓ I've usually reached out to people where I thought there was a personal chemistry, there was a connection, and I did that. But to to Ashley's point, you know, earlier that there are mentors who don't even know they are my mentors, I have I have those. And and I tell you, they are my I call them my remote mentors. And the remote mentors are basically me reading books. So Warren Buffett's shareholder letters, I mean, I mean he is my biggest mentor. He has no idea he's my he's such a big mentor. But just reading those books, reading the newsletters, I mean, these days people are very generous with their time on podcasts as well. I think that also is a great way to learn about people. I say this very thoughtfully because I think if you catch me on a day-to-day basis and you ask me some very Deep question, I might have a very uninspiring answer to that. But the day I sit down to write my book, I would bring a lot of my life's insights to answering some of those kind of questions. So I think you'd be better off reading my book than talking ⁓ to me, grabbing me at any given point. So so I think those mentors who are ⁓ who have written the biographies, those are do not do not discount those. ⁓
speaker-0: So not a scripted question, so it's okay if we don't answer this, but what are some things you mentioned, the books, newsletters, podcasts, what are some things that both of you regularly read or listen to that might be interesting for our students?
speaker-2: I think you would learn a lot if you if you do read newspapers. And ⁓ newspapers are hugely and heavily biased. So I would actually read both sides of the newspapers. So I would read the Global Times in China, and I would read in the Hong Kong Post, and I would read Telegram, ⁓ Telegraph and Guardian. So I would actually read both sides of the newspaper just to get a get an insight into some of the current topics. But I think that's more. short-term reading because the the longevity of those kind of things is like a few hours or one day at best, particularly these days of you know global geopolitical uncertainty. But I think newsletters is a great way to get into the minds of some of the top investors. And books are phenomenal. I mean I cannot emphasize enough. You should be reading biographies, you should be reading books on certain topics, whatever topic interests you. I am a huge fan of financial history books. Just pick up, start wherever. I it's just, I think history does rhyme. It does not repeat, but it certainly does rhyme. Everything that we are seeing today has happened before. And ⁓ it's shocking to me when I read some of these books and I'm like, ⁓ my God, this could be from today's newspaper. So definitely do that. Some of the podcasts, I'm not a podcast person, but some of the ones that I have found very interesting are Lex Friedman's podcasts. ⁓ when you'll stand it with like Elon, with Mark Zuckerberg, with Mark Andresen, with Prime Minister Modi. I think some of those are very thoughtful podcasts. There is a podcast that Columbia Business School does. I think it's called Value Investing with Legends or something of that sort. Again, if you're driving, you've got nothing to do. That's another of a good podcast just listened to. But yeah, I can go on and on. I think you have to read, read, read. Pristine, over to you.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, I love everything you said. And then I actually want to add on to the newspaper thing. While those stories are short and they only the l impact is very it it is tomorrow's waste paste b paper basket liner, but there's a through line and so maintaining the story and and sort of and reading things from both sides, it's so that you see the spin and so that you and then you follow the story along and there's a lot of things that sort of a lot of stories that intertwine and I think when you do it. regularly you're able to glean that in a way that is different. I actually have gone back I've I've ordered the newspaper, which I didn't do for a long time, and it is helping with my anxiety around the news because I think the newspaper has a bit more of a thoughtful take on it than sometimes people that are trying to catch the attention of an algorithm. And so I think that that is really healthy for me. And then I also find that it that I can put it down as well. It's not a tw it doesn't feel as twenty four hours. It feels very much and and I like how they've they've taken efforts to sort of bring some of these storylines together. So we've and I d I know a lot of people have been left out of traditional media and I also know a lot of people are no longer able to afford being in traditional media. So Substack is where a lot of these authors are going. I have not done as great a job as finding following journalists to s the Substacks. I've I've I think during different periods of my life I've had different focuses. And so when I was investing and when I was leading up to that career in investing, I did read a lot of technical Black Swan and a lot of more even more technical ones, very heavy finance, very much ⁓ some of the some of the disasters that it happened and some of the Nobel Prize winning disasters that have happened, right? Like there's fascinating stories and soul barras within there. It's it's it can really get to you. But as I journeyed into untangle money and I was really getting asked why women, why women, which is more of just a personal thing for me. I started exploring some female economic writers. So one wonderful one, Katrine Marcall, she wrote Who Cooked Adam Smith's Dinner? And she argues that string and fabric was actually an industrial revolution that's been ignored by finan or by history because it was largely women tr led. She talks about how Adam Smith and like the foundation of economics, he lived with his mom He worried about what was in it for the baker, the butcher, the hardware or the laborer, but he never asked what was in it for his mom. Like why does his mom care for him all his life? And I think that really led to this notion that women's unpaid labor is not is not seen as economically important, which I think we're seeing some of the ramifications of now as women are going into the workforce and our unpaid labor isn't being covered and that's causing all sorts of dislocations that that we've we've built on top of this notion that there's free labor for certain care work and things like that. If you're looking to start with personal finance, Shannon Lee Simmons was also a professional in the wealth management space. She has probably the best personal finance book I've ever seen for everyday people. So it's called Worry Free Money. I recommend everything she's read, she or written she has debt free living as well. Invisible Women was really a lot of the jumping point. Like I can I can draw a straight line from Caroline Correct of Preset Perez's invisible women to starting on Tango Money. She talked about how, and this resonated as an engineer deeply. She talked about how the data we collect informs the designs we make. And if we under survey women and if we ignore their their she she looks at data sets that have been disaggregated by gender, and she says then you get two distinctive peaks. But we don't, we don't Survey enough women, we don't collect enough women's data, so we end up really inadvertently designing around men. And then she talks about all the unintended consequences of that. So that was incredible. There's an amazing book by Chantal Chapman called The Trauma of Money that just came out. She talks about things that I think in finance we don't think about, like the money stories that live with us, the generational harms that we might bring around money, scarcity and abundance and things like that. So be and then Back to traditional finance, I just saw my note. I really liked Ray Dalio's work. And then I did f I used to follow a lot of investors. So if you are in the investment space, I totally agree. There were some I I I don't know why they're escaping me, but I a lot of investors do have newsletters and they sh and and they can be I find a lot of investors are deep thinkers, especially if they're placing large beds and they're really looking at structural things and You may not get their insights at the moment because they may not they want to place their bets first. So that's another thing to be aware of is the time delay and has that has that moment passed and are you jumping on a bag w bandwagon as that moment is closing? But but the the teachings that they can share and the wisdom and the ability to maybe see the next one or something they're not paying attention to or something that's too small for them to capitalize on because they have they have larger capital allocations. But I I do think just overall in general, it's an industry that attracts a lot of people who love reading. So to Satchi's point, I'm a voracious reader. I sounds like you are as well. And I think that is a through line that is is very common in this space because there are so many moving parts and because there are so many incredible people who have written incredible books and I'm trying to get my kids into reading. So if you want to expand your mind, you can go anywhere in a book and It's just where what's the right time and place for for you and what you want to read. I apologize if that was too dark. It's just I just thought it was poignant. I've that that yeah, it is real, right? Like and dissidents and a lot of them have books and it's
speaker-0: Our programming is both at the high school level and university into young professional. And one of the things that we mentioned is understanding opinion articles and like how that impacts different things, right?
speaker-1: It's important to understand the motivation. Why are they saying that? Especially in anything that has to do with money. So pump and dump schemes, right? Learn about them. What are boiler rooms? A random walk down Wall Street is an excellent, slightly not beginner book. Like if you're ready to go a little further. I like that one because it kind of it broke my heart. Sachi, I don't know if you read it, but it talks about how val I I love value investing. It's my favorite style of investing. But it really talks about how it's a style of investing that works at a particular time in a cycle and and really doesn't doesn't it may feel better, but it may not outperform just a random bouquet of stocks. So broke my heart.
speaker-0: Well, there's certainly so many areas to grab inspiration from. And with both of you as leaders, how do you champion women in investing in FinTech today?
speaker-1: I think it's really important to champion women. I really think that it's a career that is fulfilling. It can be very financially rewarding. And it also has real world implications. One of the things we saw was social responsible investing has really taken off. And a lot of that is people so it that is not doing good with your money. That's doing less harm with your money. Impact investing is doing good with your money. So in that space, if you want to invest your money in a way that benefits the world. Impact investing is better, but socially responsible investing is a n is a way to do less harm. And that the the emergence of that and the explosion of that is really largely attributed to women. And so what I really wanted to do is showcase that women are in finance, that women are making these decisions, that women are having an impact. So we do highlight a lot of female professionals on our blog. Whenever I can, I want to make connections for women. I think it's it's a small world of finance. As you go up, the world gets smaller. So opening doors and facilitating introductions, very, very important. Referring people to women. I try to list more women thought leaders. So I think in the books that I that I mention or that I talk about because I think that that they can be overlooked, specifically women of Color, women with intersectionality. ⁓ I think it's just really important to to use our voices and specifically my voice to showcase some of the women who I admire and also to enable people to realize they aren't alone at wanting to learn about money. They aren't, it isn't the purview of men. It isn't just for the boys. This isn't something you talk about, you have to talk about on the golf course. You can I I ⁓ My goal is or my dream is one day there's a bunch of women at the nail salon just chit chatting about money and investing and and how they're being clever with their resources. So
speaker-2: ⁓ well, well, well said. I guess in my case, someone once said to me, you can't be what you can't see. Yeah. And I think that's a very powerful, pithy way of saying that we need women role models in finance and particularly investing. And just to put things in context, there's around, I think, $90 trillion of efforts that are managed in the US alone. And of that, 98.4% is managed by white males. And I have nothing against white males. They're great human beings. Most of my friends are white males, so but in that 1.6%, there is African Americans, there's Asians, there's LGBTQ, there's people who identify themselves as whatever they identify themselves as women. In 1.4%. I mean that is a shockingly depressingly low number. ⁓ I mean I am as an engineer, I am all 110% about meritocracy. But when I see numbers, I can tell which number is not an appropriate number. And I think this is an inappropriate number for the industry. So so I do take my role very, very seriously that if I can stand up in front of a group of students and just normalize. female investors, then I would do that. So I do go to a large number of quite a few colleges in the US and UK and in Europe just to normalize that there are female investors. So I definitely do that. I am a judge, stock picking contests and those kind of things, just to kind of be more visible. And then again, as a CIO of Parton Capital, I think that's a very important role that I play because the three analysts that I have in the fund, they are all women. So I have to then walk the talk on everything that I believe we as an industry have to do to support women through their life phases to be an investor, to be into in investing. So that's again a role that I take very seriously. From time to time, we take interns. Many of them are female interns and just giving them exposure to investing, thinking. And as Christine said, it's a great career for women. I don't actually know why women are not there. It's such an exciting career. Like FaceTime does nothing for investing. Nothing. I mean, this is a this is a career which can be as flexible as you want it to be. It's I mean, I can go on and on, but let me pause here because I think I'll keep voicing these opinions in any forum that I can to make a difference to our industry.
speaker-0: Well, Sachi, I'm gonna start with you this time and I'm gonna wrap up to the last question. So to help our students as they actually let me rephrase my question. To close, we're looking at helping our students build confidence and credibility in finance. So what advice would you give?
speaker-2: Finance is just like any other career. Like if you're going into medical, if you're going into being a pilot, like it's it's it's just one of those same careers. So the skill set would be just be prepared, be ready, bring a great attitude, behave well and be fearless. Be fearless. Because learning happens when we are fearless, when we are not sort of bogged down by fear or greed or pressures or anything else. Don't don't try to follow someone else's dream. Don't go into a career into an usher that for reasons that are not your own. And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. And I think this is attributed to this lady called Ana Yes Neen. So the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud. was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. And I think those are the kind of that's what you should be doing. That's what following your passion is. That when you are not afraid of failing, and in fact you should fail, keep failing. You know, failing is great. Failing is there's nothing, there's no issue. So find your passion, even within finance, find your passion and pursue it.
speaker-1: It's amazing. ⁓ to add to that, data actually shows or the research shows that and I I'm not saying this to disparage men, but rather to push back against the notion that women are bad with money. Women make better investors than men at both the retail, so that's everyday people, and at the professional level. We see an outperformance of over one percentage point, which in the In the finance world, 100 basis points is how we talk about it. That's how important all those little increments are. That is a career-making delta. That's a difference that's massive. And if it was really a meritocracy, we would see these things making having more of an impact. So women are really great at investing. We are really great long-term thinkers. There's reasons why we think that could be the case. We we don't actually quite know, but we don't. I don't want women to change the way they're investing, right? I don't want to invest more like men. They're we're already outperforming them, but we need to invest. So we need to sell less cash. We need to get our money invested. And a and it doesn't have to be boring or dull. There are incredible women type companies out there. And and I actually think maybe the th there's less of bias towards gender stereotypes maybe in this audience, but Just find a company or product that you like and that you use and read a lot of books or figure out how to analyze it. Everybody who's an engineer has an analytical toolkit and mindset and then and get your hands dirty and and try to analyze what you think is happening. There are lots of fake trading accounts, like practice accounts that you can get on lots of different platforms. So you can try it out with it with fake money. You can also try it out with A little bit of real money. It is it it is such an interesting task. And I think it's women are naturally gifted at planting seeds and watching flowers blossom. I call them financial bouquets, your investment portfolios, your financial bouquet. And I think that women are really great at having a diverse bouquet and having a point of view. And we're excellent learners and listeners and we're really great at s building on what's come before us. So be curious, be confident and I love that expression. It's time for you to blossom.
speaker-0: Thank you both. This conversation shows that skills from STEM, such as problem solving, data, and curiosity, translate very powerfully into finance. And to our students, take that first step, stay curious, and know this industry can benefit from your insights. for joining the conversation. Visit RockhastreeWall Street.com to learn more. Make sure to follow and join us for the next episode. Until next time, let's keep rocking finally.
Maura Cunningham and Sallie Krawcheck reflect on leadership, confidence and women's financial empowerment.
Key takeaways
The conversation explores diversity in financial leadership.
Krawcheck discusses Ellevest's progress at the time of the conversation.
Cunningham shares lessons from her Wall Street experience.
About this episode
Kicking off RTSWS’s 15th anniversary year, RTSWS CEO Ashley Leftwich reshares a 2024 conversation with Founder Maura Cunningham and Wall Street legend Sallie Krawcheck. Sallie at the time shared the exciting milestone of Ellevest reaching $2 billion in investments, highlighting the firm’s significant impact on women’s financial empowerment.
During the conversation, Sallie provided valuable career insights, particularly emphasizing the critical role of diversity in financial leadership, sharing: “I learned that diversity isn’t just nice to have; it correlates directly with the quality of a leadership team. Diverse teams, bringing different perspectives and experiences, are not only smarter but also perform better.” Maura reflected on her own Wall Street experiences, offering advice for the next generation on the importance of knowing your numbers, advocating for yourself, and recognizing your value.
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Disclaimer: All financial and investment information contained in this podcast is merely for educational and informational purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice. Should you decide to act upon any information in this podcast, you do so at your own risk.
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Transcript
Transcript supplied by Riverside; it may contain transcription errors.
speaker-0: Welcome to Rocking Finance, the Rock the Street Wall Street podcast. Real stories, real access, real path into finance. Join us for candid high-impact conversations with industry leaders sharing the insights, experiences, career pivots, and journeys that can help young women advance through the financial industry with great confidence. Rock the Street Wall Street equips high school and university students, especially young women, by bringing the ⁓ and STEM to life. Financial and investment fundamentals. We provide direct industry access and guidance supporting students and young professionals on their journeys from classrooms to careers while expanding participation in the capital markets. Through cohort-based learning, mentorship, and individual career connection, we help students build confidence, capabilities, and networks that open doors. Our goal is clear: expand participation in the capital markets and strengthen the future of finance one cohort at a time. Today I'm your host, Ashley Leftwich, CEO of Rock the Street Wall Street, bringing you this special edition of Walking Finance. As we celebrate our 15th anniversary year, we're featuring conversations whose lessons stand the test of time. Originally recorded in 2024, this was shortly after the announcement that I would serve as CEO. Privilege joining our visionary founder Maura Cunningham and Wall Street legend Sally Krotchik for a candid discussion about leadership, preparation, and knowing the value you bring to the table. Since this conversation was recorded, Sally stepped away from her day-to-day leadership at Elvis to focus on her health and trusting outstanding leaders to guide the organization forward. Like so many conversations with Sally, this one extends well beyond finance. Sally shares practical advice about standing out, working hard, being prepared, and contributing with confidence. Mora reflects on her own Wall Street experiences, including the importance of knowing your numbers, advocating for yourself, and recognizing your value. Now for our 15th episode, Let's Rock Finance.
speaker-2: But
speaker-0: Welcome. We're delighted to be here with two Wall Streeters, Sally Krotek, founder of Elivest, and Maura Cunningham, founder of Rock the Street Wall Street, for a compelling conversation. We just saw Elavest ring the New York Stock Exchange bell, celebrating a major milestone of $2 billion in investments. Congratulations, Sally, to you and
speaker-1: your team. Thank you. It was very exciting, I have to say.
speaker-0: And Maura, Rockfast Street, Wall Street is bringing the MN STEM to high school girls through financial and investment fundamentals. In addition to more than 25 cities across the US, we are expanding our footprint in Toronto and London, expanding the pipeline of women in investing. And with that, Mora, I leave it to you and Sally to jump off the conversation.
speaker-2: So Sally, two billion dollars. That's quite a threshold. So tell us more about that and congratulations again.
speaker-1: Thank you. No, it's it's it was very exciting. I'm really thrilled for the team. It it took a while to get here. They say the first billion is the hardest, but the second billion is hardest too. And you know, that represents ⁓ tens of thousands of women ⁓ investing in their future, building wealth, ⁓ you know, becoming more confident which comes with building wealth, ⁓ really having taken those actions to ⁓ you know, to increase their power as well. So I I when we went to ring the bell of the New York Stock Exchange, I thought I've been here a thousand times. ⁓ this is a you know just a a typical morning. And I have to tell you that when I pulled up, you know, walked up to the building and there were all the L of S signs all over it, I got sort of emotional, truthfully, truth be told. ⁓ it really felt like an important moment, an important mark mark for us.
speaker-2: I can imagine, I can truly imagine. it's ⁓ it it is quite a milestone and good for you for for getting women to understand that it's better to invest your money rather than staying in cash, which women have unfortunately ⁓ the habit to do, which we ⁓ you know, given that we are at the younger end of the pipeline in terms of financial literacy and so forth, we are teaching the girls how to assess risk. ⁓ And so clearly your organization is doing that as well. So kudos to you in getting them to understand the benefits of taking a calculated risk, shall we say?
speaker-1: In fact, the ⁓ a ⁓ known risk is keeping your money in the bank. ⁓ and of course you should have some money in the bank, some money that's there safely for you, but you know that ⁓ that money does not keep up with inflation, so you know it becomes less valuable over time. ⁓ whereas investing, we think of investing the stock market, we think of it as so risky. But the truth is historically, if you've had a long-term time horizon, it's been less risky than you think. That the ups and downs have been overtaken over time by you know the growth of our very strong economy, ⁓ which you know translates then into the prices of stocks. So ⁓ I've always conceived of investing in the stock market as riskier than it's been in a diversified investment portfolio. But over time it historically has not been.
speaker-2: Totally agree with that. And we all know the long term trend is up. So there you have it. We just have to get them started earlier too.
speaker-1: ⁓ for sure. For sure.
speaker-2: So about that. So as you know, at Rockley Street, Wall Street, we're reaching girls at an earlier age. ⁓ We lose girls in math at age nine in the United States. And in Western Europe, we don't have this problem in China, Russia, India, nor interestingly enough, Eastern European countries. So it's clearly a cultural issue, not a capability issue. ⁓ So we decided to tap into them while they're in high school and get those girls back into math. So you and I both know, Sally, that it's nothing financial math, quite frankly, and it's nothing much more than arithmetic, sixth grade arithmetic for the most part. ⁓ maybe first year algebra, with the exception of our algos and quants. ⁓ but surely 98% of us that are in the field only had to know for the most part first year algebra of that. so we have among our students ⁓ many young women who are also interested not only in investment literacy. But also they're interested in potentially coming into the field. So I've been a an advocate for if you're going to diversify the members of our industry, you must catch them earlier. Simply because as a as a one half of the species, you're losing us in math. ⁓ as I said, at age nine. And so if the industry keeps looking for them at college level, They've already opted out of finance and economics. And so ⁓ we are proud to say that w our students are at ⁓ are studying finance and economics at a rate of five times the average female student in the United States. ⁓ but can you say more, if you would, about women in the industry and how helpful it would be to get more of them into the
speaker-1: Well, well, first of all, ⁓ I will tell you I've been in Wall Street since I graduated from college. ⁓ and I have determined that ⁓ nobody uses trig. You said maybe there's some algebra. There there's some algebra, there's some statistics if that's the what part of your job, but trigonometry, which is my bear, I promise you I haven't used it. Calculus has not been used. I promise. Those those things you can leave behind. But but what I would say is I didn't consider myself A math gal, I am a puzzle solver. And so what I loved about my time on Wall Street, and I really started as you know, an equity research analyst, which which sounds geeky. It's it's not. It's actually fascinating because it pulls together all different parts of the brain. In order to be a great equity research analyst, you have to have the analytics, you have to have the math. You need to be able to build a spreadsheet. More importantly, you need to be able to clean insights out of the spreadsheet. If, you know, the if you know the top line grows by X, you know, what happens to the gross margin? What happens to the bottom line? Do these make sense? Is your balance sheet balancing? I love doing puzzles and building these earnings models are puzzles. ⁓ I love writing as well. ⁓ and part of being a research analyst is writing and convincing people of your argument. I love dealing with smart people and having a debate and a back and forth. ⁓ and being a research analyst does that as well. And and so for me, it was probably the most well-rounded job around. It wasn't, you know, I was locked in a room doing one thing or the other, but my day had this rhythm to it where I was being analytical, I was being creative, I was engaging with people. ⁓ so I loved it. I really did it. It's not, it's not, you know, your your your old, you know, fashion calculator. in a room. ⁓ so it's, I would say, first of all, a great career for somebody to be engaged in. ⁓ and then it's great for the industry because having, you know, right now the industry is not diversified enough. ⁓ and you know, diversity is power. And so having different perspectives and different backgrounds and different insights and different levels of education coming at these problems that the industry is trying to solve, should I buy this stock? You know, should I buy buy you know, th should this be my asset allocation? The the diversity is helpful ⁓ for the industry. So it's a win win when more women are going into the industry, building fantastic careers and then building a stronger industry, in my opinion.
speaker-2: Well, obviously I couldn't agree more. That's what we're all about. So, and one of the things that I we tell our students, of which we have probably over a thousand each year now across the United States alone. So we explain to them that if we change who we invest in, we can change what we invest in. And I think that's a big part of our mission is to get more women seated at the table, as you probably know from sitting on other boards. ⁓ the people who really are some of the decision makers include those who know the finances, ⁓ those that are on the finance committee, and among other things, can also ⁓ understand, you know, the the cost-benefit analysis of things. And so it's critical that women have that seat at the board. And that's ultimately where we want to get these girls to come and understand that that's where the power lies, quite frankly.
speaker-1: That's where the power lies. That is where the power lies. But that you you said it and I underscore it. That is where the power lies, is with the numbers.
speaker-2: Exactly. Exactly. I was listening to a podcast this morning. I won't mention the name, but there's some things going on today about a particular company and it's the board and ⁓ a decision that needs to be made ⁓ or not made. In any event, it's a big, big power play. but one of the things that we're also noticing lately is there's a bit of a pushback on the DEI initiatives that were rolled out. Can you say more about what what you're seeing? Could 'cause we're seeing on one hand, we're seeing a lot some pushback on it, but on the other hand, we're seeing some more male allies come to the table with us.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I think the pushback is ridiculous. ⁓ and I come at it from a research analyst perspective. ⁓ I'll tell you back when I was a research analyst and choosing whether to invest in this stock or in you know this ⁓ this sector, whenever I would meet with clients, I would always, always, always get the question: is the leadership team of this company any good? Some basic question. And I'm a very analytical person. So I tried to, and I knew I had an opinion, but I didn't think my opinion, particularly when I was in my twenties and thirties, I thought I don't know that my opinion's worth more than anybody else's. I I don't it's an opinion. Is there any way I can analyze and quantify this? What makes a great leadership team? Is it that they all went to Harvard? Is it that they all have worked together for X number of years? Is it that they're all in their fifties? Is it, you know, they're all from this part of the country? Is it that they're all analytical? What what is it? And there's one thing. There's one thing that correlates with quality of a leadership team, and it is diversity. And it's diversity of all kinds. It's diversity of thought, perspective, background, education, gender, ⁓ ethnicity, d sexual orientation, optimist, pessimist, you name it. But think about it, if you don't have diversity, then you have the opinion of one person. If you do have diversity, you're bringing all those different things together so that you can have the debate and make a better decision. ⁓ so this pushback on DEI, I don't, I mean, I get it, but I don't get it. ⁓ but it's just not smart. It is not smart because diversity has been shown to lead to superior performance, higher returns on equity, ⁓ greater innovation, lower risk. greater employee engagement, greater consumer engagement. The power of diversity is so great that diverse teams actually outperform smarter teams. Smarter teams. It's by bringing those differences together. So ⁓ look, I I know people feel threatened by change, ⁓ but change towards diversity is a very good thing.
speaker-2: So it's it's interesting, you know, we're in three countries now, ⁓ Sally. We're in the US, the UK, and Canada. And it's fascinating because we're not having that pushback in the UK, Northern Canada. So it's clearly political. ⁓ and so ⁓ okay, so like you, I grew up on Wall Street. I absolutely loved it. I really did. I had a great time. Like you said, you're around smart people, you're around people who think really quickly. There's always things happening. You know, I was in the trading pits. I mean, it was, it was
speaker-1: Sure. Sure.
speaker-2: ⁓ a lot of fun, a lot of ⁓ action going on. and you had to just constantly be on your toes. you have you know obviously navigated across a lot of known firms and you've been able to make it to the top. So can you share like a key lesson that you learned in in getting there?
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ course it takes hard work. ⁓ it takes a lot of luck. It takes ⁓ mentors who ⁓ and sponsors who really care about you and who who fight for you. ⁓ I actually found for me, and this may sound counterintuitive, it took me sticking out. Sticking out. ⁓ and you you might think, Well, gosh, you're in the minority and there are very few other women. Why don't you just Put your head down and get your work done and sort of glide on through. But I realized, ⁓ and this is you know decades ago, but I realized that at the age of 26, I was a senior woman in the Solomon Brothers office in London. And so I thought, if I try to do this the way others have done it, by definition, that I'll fail. Why don't I take this characteristic I have, which is I stand out and then just really stand out? ⁓ and what do I mean by that? As a research analyst. Oftentimes research analysts will you know, do the housekeeping. A company write write up a report. This company reported earnings. They came ahead two cents from where the expectations were. A penny of it was currency, and a penny was the tighter expenses, and therefore I'm taking up my estimate. ⁓ so imagine if that's the recipient of one of those pieces of research. A dur a ⁓ A boss of mine once said the calls that were worth ⁓ worth making were big calls on big stocks. Say you know, find something to say, not my opinion, backed up by analytics, on a stock that people care about. So my very first piece of research was on a company that no longer exists, American General. The company was grow it was an insurance company, but growing like a weed through lending and really putting loans on the books. And everybody said, look at this is amazing. They found a new business opportunity, a way to grow. I looked at this and did a deep analysis and said, this is this is bad growth. This is pure putrid growth. This is growth of loans, but credit is deteriorating also. And you can't see it because the loan growth is so significant. But if you adjust this ratio and you lag this and you lag that, you can see there's deterioration. I wrote this up and I titled it American General Woe Nelly. It was the first piece of research I wrote. And two months later, I was right. ⁓ and I could go on and on. And I believe me, I had times I was wrong. But I ⁓ my goal was I want I'm covering this industry. If you are going to invest in a stock in this industry, if you do not talk to me, your your boss will be upset with you that you will go in and say, I want to buy XYZ stock. Sally Krotchak covers that stock. What does Sally have to say? ⁓ I don't know. I didn't talk to her. What do you mean you didn't talk to Sally Krotchak? She's the one doing the interesting, you know, controversial, unconventional research. And so by doing this, make no mistake, I increased my risk. If I my my first call was right, my second call was right. If my first four calls were wrong, I'm sure I would have been out of business. That would have been it. But I thought, let me just go for it and let me make big calls on big stocks and stand out and be the person you have to talk to. By the way, my next move when we've hit on this a little bit was I went with the numbers. Since I was in the financial services industry, the power was not in HR, which is a terrific, ⁓ you know, terrific department and and useful and helpful and so key. That's not where the power is on Wall Street. The power is the chief financial officer, the chief numbers officer. And so I became I set my sights and became the chief financial officer of Citigroup. You know, and so By doing that by re by being controversial, not being scared to be wrong, but being right more often than I was wrong, and then going for the numbers is how I made it to the top.
speaker-2: I'll I'll share something with you too. It's funny. ⁓ two things. One was similar to you, ⁓ I sensed something in something that was getting priced and had an incredible swing. This is before the ETFs, we had UITs. I don't know if you remember those, Sally. And we had a we had a ⁓ conglomerate of firms that were were issuing them. And long story short, we had the Z tranches of CMOs being priced by a firm, an outside firm. And the price swings were phenomenal, you know. And granted, they're a Z tranche, but I'm like, ⁓ something's wrong here. So my boss, I told him, said, Look, you it's the numbers, right? I said, there's something really, really wrong here. ⁓ you know, watching what they're pegging it off of, there's something wrong. Somebody doesn't know something here. Let's go figure this out. Because, you know, clearly our our unit holders were getting upset about it too. And so, long story short, I did my analysis and I had ⁓ I actually went to the trading desks. I sat next to each of these traders who were trading them because back then they were in their infancy. ⁓ and so there were only a few people who understood CMOs at the time, clerized mortgage obligations ⁓ back then. And so I actually was one of the few who understood them. And ⁓ it was fascinating to hear what they said versus what they said previously, like 30 days before. ⁓ and so I would call them on it, you know, and those kinds of things. And so long story short, we got that fixed, shall we say. ⁓ but it was a fascinating thing about diving into the puzzles, diving into the numbers. I mean, if and again, you know, I want to make sure that everybody understands, like you said, it's not trig, it's not calculus. These these are arithmetic kind of numbers, and it's just fascinating to watch in a sequence of what's happening and to get to the bottom of the story. ⁓ the other the other time.
speaker-1: Absolutely puzzle solving.
speaker-2: what it Yeah, yeah. And it's it's fun, you know? And the other thing was ⁓ I had asked I had gotten a bonus and then I said it's ⁓ quite frankly, I said, you know, don't think that's quite enough. And they were quite surprised at me. and then ⁓ I had all my numbers under my arm and I said well let's let me show you the numbers. And then they double they doubled my bonus. So again I can't stress the the strength of numbers. ⁓ So I agree with you totally about knowing the numbers. It's financial literacy month, and we're delighted, you know, obviously, that you joined us today. And I'm proud that our students in Rock the Street is growing its footprint. And as you know, these are girls who are aging up. We have over nearly a thousand that are entering into the workforce each year now, via internships and job shadowing and entry-level positions into the profession. where we offer our alumni and career center, by the way, because our girls have aged up. We're up this 11 years now. We've got a decade behind us. So clearly our students are in college and post-college. And so we created this alumni and career center, which has just taken off. ⁓ we have a lot of ⁓ live listings there as we speak. But I wanted to ⁓ talk to you anything that you might like to add to ⁓ encourage our students, our team, and our volunteers. ⁓ in terms of what it is that we're we're trying to achieve at the ⁓ beginning of the pipeline of of knowledge about investing.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ start early. I'm so glad y'all are starting early. Just start early. The worst investing advice I ever heard was my ex-husband telling my still, he's still my brother. ⁓ but my ex-husband telling my brother, don't worry about investing in your 20s. You're going to be making so much more money in your 30s and 40s, you can wait till then, which demonstrates a complete lack of the power of compounding interest. And compounding interest is not a particularly intuitive concept, ⁓ but it is a very powerful concept. And in fact, the greatest investor of all time, Warren Buffett, says it's compound interest. That that's the that's the trick ticket. And so starting early has such advantages, the mathematical advantages, of course, but but even the the advantages of confidence. ⁓ I would say the best career advice nobody ever gives but me is to invest. And if you are Taking some part of your paycheck, investing it with someone like an Alabast, ⁓ and allowing, you know, part of every paycheck to get in there and you'll have your ups and your downs, but over time historically has gone up and compounded. Boy, if that doesn't give you more confidence at work, I don't know what will. Because, you know, I love your story, Maura, about I told him this isn't enough and they doubled. ⁓ I would never have been able to do that. The only way I could do that is if I knew I have enough money. You know, that if they're like, well, I hate you and you're fired, you know, you're fine. No, that never happens, by the way, but I was brought up in the South, so I wouldn't worry about that. But ⁓ you know, you can just act with so many more degrees of freedom. In fact, we ⁓ we had a recent survey we did at Elivest about what happens when women get more money, ⁓ inheritance, you know, a windfall of some kind, and ⁓ found that young women are three times more likely to say they want to leave their partner when they have more money, which is a good thing. You know, it's it's sad when marriages and partnerships don't work out. It's even sadder when you're stuck, you know, when women are stuck in them because they don't have have the money. And so, ⁓ you know, g starting early, gaining the confidence and then having more degrees of freedom in one's life, I think is is pretty, pretty important.
speaker-2: Couldn't agree more. Totally couldn't agree more with that. So ⁓ well I appreciate the the time you spent with us, Sally. ⁓ you know, ⁓ you you are ⁓ a font of wisdom. and ⁓ I love the fact that you speak as candidly as you do. I think we need much, much more of that. I hope we we do see more of the young women speaking more of their minds. And I do agree with you with being economically financial and financially independent ⁓ gives you power and gives you choices. Yeah, I couldn't say it better myself.
speaker-0: These lessons remain just as relevant today as they were when we first recorded this conversation. They also reflect the mission that has guided Rock the Street Wall Street for the past 15 years, educating, preparing, and advancing the next generation of financial professionals. Thank you for joining the conversation. Visit Rock the Streetwall Street.com to learn more. Make sure to follow and join us for the next episode. Until next time, let's keep rocking finance.
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